It never fails to shock me how a tip is demanded in the US. People simply refuse to listen to reason when we (yes, there are others!) tell them that leaving a tip isn’t necessary. Well, I’m hoping for too much here, but if you’re a waiter, here are 5 reasons why I will try my best not to give any money to you and why the reasons for tipping are crappy.
1. You act as if you’re my best friend
Just leave me alone ok? I don’t want to bloody chit chat with you. I want food. FOOD! Get it? It’s a restaurant. I go there to eat. I go because I want either Italian food, Chinese Food or something else which I can’t get in a McDonald’s. So I come to a restaurant to fulfill my cravings for it. I will pay for what I value – food. Not you.
Christ, you offend me – kneeling down next to my table, pretending to like me and chatting as if you’re my best friend when it’s obvious that all you’re after is the tip! I’m not a bloody money bag you know. I will pay the bill which includes the cost of the food, the environment and the salaries of the people involved – nothing more.
The only way to get money out of me that I don’t have to legally pay is by prying it out of my cold dead hands…
Bottom line: I don’t want to know your name, or interact with you for any longer than I have to in order to place my order. As far as I’m concerned, you’re the equivalent of a conveyor belt that brings me my food and a computer into which I input my order. Of course, I won’t be rude. But don’t expect me to interact with you any more than I would with some stranger.
Image Credit: cafemama
2. You don’t get paid enough
And this is my problem how exactly? It’s astonishing that customers are expected to make up for your employer’s cheapness in not paying you a decent wage. Please include the full cost in everyone’s bill thank you very much. I’ll pay it because I have to and the charge is there for me to see.
What’s really funny here is that no one seems to criticize the employers! All criticism is reserved for non tipping customers instead of the owners of the restaurant for not paying a decent wage. Wtf! Could it possibly be because you guys know you can make much more by tips and under report your income to the IRS?
3. You’ll spit in my food if I don’t tip you?
And I’ll shoot your kid if you don’t give me a million dollars. Seriously, am I even hearing this right? You’re actually using the threat of blackmail to make me pay you? Well as long as you’re openly claiming to be a criminal it’s all right I guess.
Fortunately that’s why I prefer buffets. Listen apart from it being illegal, this shows your poor integrity. But if you spit in someone’s food because they didn’t give you money you didn’t earn, then you’re a loser and deserve to be a waiter for the rest of your life.
4. Bringing me my food isn’t worthy of being paid extra
Did you cook it? Did you invent it? No. You picked it up and brought it to me. While it might not be easy, there are plenty of jobs which are much worse – shop floor workers for example. And I’ve been a shop floor manager, so I know. Face it – compared to other jobs, being a waiter is unskilled. You get paid what the market will think your services are worth. You don’t deserve more for your work over and above what your employer should pay you.
5. Money doesn’t grow on trees
I expect you to be grateful and pray for me at night if I tip you 10%. Be happy I gave you anything at all. I worked for the money in my wallet and by giving you some I didn’t have to, I’m doing you a favor. Learn to remember that when people give you something they don’t need to, it’s a favor. You don’t complain that they didn’t give you more!
By the way, the same thing above applies to all professions that demand tips including those on cruise liners.
So now that you understand why I won’t give you money you don’t deserve, stop with the “oh how could you?” attitude. I can. And I will.
Update: Here’s a rebuttal of the many silly justifications for tipping that people have given in the comments section.
Try being a server for a living and see if you’re complaining now.
Like Pissed Off, I find it extremely insulting and ignorant to group servers as lazy, uneducated and pathetic without knowing their situations first.
1) Don’t forget that there are students waiters. From all the ones I’ve worked with, they all are working to make some cash in order to fund their education.
2) Being a server is tough and defiantly not a lazy and easy job . You’re on your feet 5-13 hours a day in midst of serving, cleaning and being complained at for things that most of the time you didn’t do.
3) You’re treated like a low-class slave worker.
4)(Similar to point 1) Before you go on saying how waiters should get educated and find a new job, education is not cheap. I don’t remember getting free degrees.
5) If you don’t agree with American’s culture of tipping, then don’t come in and start giving the waiter a hard time. Please do society a favor by staying home and cook your own goddamn food.
In reply to anon
Anon–valid points, but I can argue that for pretty much every other industry.
Students are waiters–well a lot of students are also EMTs who make minimum wage. YES MINIMUM WAGE. the guys in the ambulance, saving your life make minimum wage. They don’t expect a tip to save your life. Also a lot of people in law enforcement also make minimum wage.
2. It is tough, but so is being a soldier, a policemen, a nurse, etc. Many nurses work 6 times a week for 14 hour shfits. I’m not talking about RNS, i’m talking about the technician level nurses that make minimum wage. Try dealing with excremant, urine, blood, death, agony, pain etc. for 6 times a week 14 hours a day. They weren’t forced to this job, yes, but they still continue to work without tips. Hospital employees can get into HUGE trouble if payed tips.
3. Eye of the beholder. I’m in the scientific field and I see Ph.D’s get treated like low-class slave workers. I know PhDs that have been in school for a total of a dozen years and get paid $30,000 a year. That’s an arbitrary argument.
4. Education is not cheap, but unfortunately it is not for everyone. Students (kids) feel so entitled to going to college, they forget to realize that college isn’t for everyone. The feeling of entitlement gets carried over into the service (food service specifically) and the kids feel entitled to getting paid an arbitrary amount on top of the wages they already make.
5. Agreeing with the “American culture” doesn’t culture change over time? isn’t culture varied by the eye of the beholder? And who says I have to tip 15%? Why can’t I tip 16.6789408% or 14.000020920 %? Its an arbitrary number. Also lets say non tippers make up 50% of the clientele at a restaraunt. You tell them to stay at home, so they do. That means 50% of your clientel is no longer welcome your restaraunt. The volume of people has decreased 50%, so therefore your revnue has decreaesed 50%. I’m not going to say anything about you guys being “uneducated” or anything because that ain’t fair, BUT you’ve got to use some common sense when grouding your arguments.
Also American Customs aren’t even carried out in America anymore. Did you know that it is an American custom not to shake a woman’s hand unless she puts her hand out first? How many people carry out that custom? Isn’t America also a “melting pot” of customs? You have people coming from all over the world, so dont’ expect everyone to conform to the SAME customs. Besides, tipping isn’t mandated by law. See my quote from above; here in california, i’m not by law required to tip. Why would I pay an additional fee if i don’t have to? Sure I’ll look like an ass, but do I really care about how a bunch of good lucking, fake 20 year olds think of me and my family? Not really :)
In reply to Common Sense
good looking not good lucking, hahaha. I still stand by my point.
In reply to Common Sense
What’s funny is that you keep talking about “good looking” people. I get it now. You’re ugly. You’re bitter. Probably a virgin. Probably picked on or even worse, ignored at school. So this is your power play. Your only way of getting back at those horrible “good looking” people that will NEVER DATE YOU EVER. Unless you rape them on a bus..wait what?! Yup. It’s all sexual frustration with you. Keep fighting the good fight d-bag.
In reply to Ron Gast
btw I wipe my ass with my right hand so WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.
It’s nice to see you actually apologize for something. But it’s a shame that you stand by all of the insults you hurled at me. Calling me “uneducated”, “lazy”, and “pathetic” is nothing to stand by. While I admit I threw a few insults back, do you really expect someone to sit around and do nothing while they’re being attacked? I’m not that kind of person. I’m always nice to start, but the moment someone insults me, I fight back.
I’m really confused at this point. I said “I’m nice to my customers because I appreciate it when people are nice to me”. So why are you saying that I’m only being nice in hopes that I’m going to be paid for it, when I just said otherwise?
I’m sorry, but if you don’t tip (unless your server was horrible, that’s another story), you do not treat people with respect. Spending $300 at a restaurant and tipping the server little to no money is the opposite of respectful. That’s telling the server that you do not appreciate them nor do you see them as a human being. You might as well be saying “I think I’m above you and therefore I hate you.” It’s purposely doing something that you know upsets someone, but continuing to do it because you don’t care.
I’ve been nothing but nice to every customer that I’ve ever waited on. Yes, they’re the reason that I make money, but they’re also people and I see them as such. If they ended up stiffing me, I’m not going to be nearly as nice as I was the first time they came in. I’m not going to go out of my way to make sure their dining experience is amazing if they’re going to screw me over. I’ll ignore them when they walk in and tell my manager that I refuse to serve them. I’m not nice to people that aren’t nice to me.
In reply to Pissed Off
You are arguing valid points pissed off, but in the world of free markets, capitalism etc., who cares about respect? I mean aren’t restaraunts a business? So why expect respect? In other forms of commerce, respect is not seen as a priority, but making money is. you’re nice to your customers simply because you want your customers to return and provide more revenue to your establishment.
Now on to tipping. I’m not, by law, required to pay ANYTHING except for what is on my receipt. If your restaraunt has a tipping/gratuity policy, i also, by law am required to pay that. I always applaud restaraunts taht have tipping policies because they are intelligent and do not leave for anything to be argued arbitrarliy. Now, as a law abiding citizen, why would I want more for something in a free market? Again, your wages to me, as a CONSUMER (not as a human being) are of no concern to me. I am at your establishment to CONSUME, nothing else. so even if i walked into a 5 star restaraunt and you guys dont’ have a tipping policy, why should i tip? i’m not requried to do so?
In reply to Pissed Off
I think your last paragraph says a lot about you and infact many other waiters. You see customers as walking dollar signs and nothing else. You are not being nice to anyone because you are a genuinely nice person but you’re doing it to squeeze all the $$ you can get out of them.
By your own admission, even if a customer treated you with respect and was friendly towards you but didn’t leave a tip, you would ignore him next time he comes. What does that say about you? You equate respect to money. Wow. The customers who respect you are the ones that give you the most money.
Btw why do you feel entitled to $60 on a $300 meal? What if I tip you $15? Did it take you a hell of a lot more effort to bring my $300 meal than the $30 meal the guy next to me ordered? Did it take you more effort to clean my table just because I ordered a dish worth $300? When anyone orders a more expensive dish, its the chef who is being tested more because he is required to cook a more exquisite and delicate dish to perfection. On the other hand your job as a waiter remains the same. If I ever leave $60 tip on a $300 bill, I will personally make sure it goes in the chef’s pocket, not YOU. I appreciate real skill and talent and I am willing to compensate for that.
btw when you say that i should feel guilty if i stiff a waiter, why can’t they feel guilty if they stiff me? I remember a few years ago when a standard tip was 10-15%. Why do you now expect a 20% tip? will that soon increase to 30? 40? 100? 1,000? It seems like i’m getting much more stiffed than you. Also, how do you know that I’m not making less than minimum wage? Never assume: even if i’m eating at a restaraunt, it doesn’t gurantee that I’m making more than $60,000 or something.
Are waiters some how the chosen people and we “unchosen people” are not allowed to question their authority? Whenever I go to any restaraunt, I always fear the waiter. In other countries, waiters are not allowed to bring their emotions into the restaraunt, but rather keep serving their customers in a monotonous form. I don’t mean to sound sexist, but if I have a female server i get freaked out. I tend to drink a lot of water, which required me to ask for a lot of refills. Why is it that everytime i do so, the waiters roll their eyebrows?
Seems like a lot of hosh posh to me. It also seems the entire food service industry has built itself on these ideals of guilt and “being rude.” I don’t understand how a business in a capitalist society can even get by with those ideals, but i suppose the restaraunt industry found a way.
I’m a career waiter, and I do my job in a friendly, professional manner, and let me tell you, I don’t want to be your best friend either. I’m sure everyone has their own reasons for not tipping, but the only real excuse is you want to keep your 20%. Go ahead. I’ll probably still make more than you,(52,000 last year, and you???), and once you leave my space, I’ll probably have a better day than you. So keep your cash, sleep well with it, and know that that lowly server is still living better than you.
In reply to David Edward Jones
don’t worry i will. So you’ve given me reason never to tip right DEJ? You’ve essentially contradicted everything that all the other wait staff have mentioend? you do in fact make more than minimum wage. In fact you make more than the average american. So you’ve just solidified why i don’t need to tip along with others that do not feel the need to do so. You say 20%. Wasn’t it 15% in the 90s? My folks tell me it was a standard 10% in the 70s. Don’t argue inflation because an added percentage to a final bill is not correlated to inflation.
DEJ–i don’t mean to sound rude, but its kidna douchy to say how much money you made. I’ll tell you this i made more than 52,000 last year, but i really don’t want to sound like a tool.
Thanks DEJ. I can now reference your post in the future as to why I don’t ever need to tip. Lets break down your post: Waiters make more than the average American, according to DEJ because “I’ll probably still make more than you,(52,000 last year, and you???), and once you leave my space, I’ll probably have a better day than you.” The quote of interest clearly states that wait staff already have excellent wages, so providing an additional fee not required by law is simply adding to their already high wages. Wait staff, according to the quote are also pretentious and rude. Wait staff use fake friendliness to con you into providing an tip “I’m a career waiter, and I do my job in a friendly, professional manner, and let me tell you, I don’t want to be your best friend either. I’m sure everyone has their own reasons for not tipping, but the only real excuse is you want to keep your 20%” no different than a grifter that you see. This shows that wait staff have no problem lying to their own clientele just to acquire additional cash. What else can they be lying about? The quality of the food? The content of the food? If they spit in the food? The pretense from the waiters can be seen in this quote “So keep your cash, sleep well with it, and know that that lowly server is still living better than you” from an emotional standpoint, such pretense is intolerable. Why would a hard working consumer that wants to spend his/her hard earned money at any establishment of interest support such pretentious, borderline immortal behavior? Why pay an additional tip to support behavior which parallels almost a fiendish attitudes to the very customers that allow the establishment to successfully run? DEJ’s post clearly demonstrates that tipping is not only unnecessary, its preposterous, as it supports wait staff with shared mentalities, namely DEJ. This, ladies and gentlemen, is another reason out of many NOT to tip at a restaraunt.
Gee. Go work at CVS, Walmart, or a retail store. They make more than a waiter/waitress ($8.00+/hr) AND the job is easy!! So quit your bitching!
I think you have to understand that this is where American perspectives and philosophies differ from Indian. In India you have a history of the caste system, where people of lower casts have a “place” in society, and were treated accordingly.
In the United States, we have more egalitarian views of people and we are taught from an early age that everyone deserves a basic level of respect and civility, rich or poor, famous or unknown.
Tipping is a customary thing in the US and it’s very taboo and inappropriate not to tip, but the sentiments that go along with tipping are that this person, who is equal to me as a human, deserves to make a wage that will keep them out of destitute poverty. We have empathy and compassion for their situation, and we recognize the need to safeguard standards of living. This is why we have a such thing as minimum wage, and why most jobs actually pay more than minimum wage.
Minimum wage for traditionally tipped jobs, such as waiting tables, is lower. In fact the annual income for that is well below the poverty line. But it’s set so low with the understanding that tipping is customary.
If you want to better your country you can’t just be out for yourself and your own standard of living, you have to consider the well being and standard of living of others. Anyway, if you don’t want to tip, I suggest you not eat in American restaurants. Not tipping would be as rude as me trapsing in to your house with my shoes on, and my pet dog and cat in tow, putting my feet up on your table with the soles of my shoes facing your mother, and eating with my left hand when I’m not left handed. The bidding your family farewell with an obscene gesture. Yes, Americans think not tipping is that bad.
In reply to AverageJoe
Very well said, Joe, as an Indian from India, I totally agree with you. Indeed, the one reason so many Indians remain in perpetual poverty is because many employers and business-people over here have beliefs and attitudes not very different from Bhagwad’s.
Well, dear Bhagwad, I just went through each and every comment in your blog and as a fellow Indian, I’m really disappointed with your cheapskate ideas although I’m not surprised the least bit. I know very well that a lot of other Indians think exactly like you do, but there are people like us who seriously differ. Let me offer you the MINORITY opinion:
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that if American waiters are making much less than the minimum wage owing to a flawed system that won’t change overnight, as a restaurant/bar patron in America, you SHOULD tip well to make up for this deficit. Asking for a change of law/social customs is a different thing but till the time it remains the same, you cannot escape your own responsibilities and obligations living in that society, no matter how unfair you think that custom may be. If everyone else is decent enough to participate in this social contract, so should you, if you want to be considered an honourable human being.
There’s a reason countries like America and Australia are considered “First World” and India is still not able to escape the “third world” tag – it’s because of people like you whose whole lives revolve around money. You have no concept of giving back to society. That’s why you tend to lead very shallow lives and are mostly surrounded by fake, artificial cheapskates like yourselves. I know plenty of examples that resemble you.
Indeed, many big businesses in India are known for their lack of Corporate Social Responsibility (exceptions are Tata, Godrej etc.). The very concept of “minimum wage” is alien to the Indian psyche. If not for the Government of India (no matter how much we like to criticise it), Indian businessmen would have got away with paying nothing at all to their workers. Why else do you think it took the British rule to abolish slavery in India? No matter how much you want to criticise colonialism, all credit should go to the British for initially setting up several domestic institutions based on European welfare state model, founding principles incorporated into the Indian constitution after India gained its independence from Britain. (Remember India’s Preamble to the Constitution: we are supposed to be a “socialist” country although that’s only in principle. Even a hardcore capitalist society like America is a lot more socialist in the true sense of the word.)
The concept of minimum wage was able to take root in America/Europe/Australia because Christianity has greatly influenced Western civilization even though most Westerners today may be atheists. The Christian concept of “helping your fellow man in distress” has shaped the psyche of these people. In India, we abandon people to their own fate because of their negative “karma”.
Not tipping the waiter is considered sensible in India. After all, exploitation of poor people is the NORM in this country. What’s next, most employees working desk jobs in big cities don’t get enough money to pay their rent bills. Again, exploiting workers is the NORM here.
You know, Bhargav, the question of whether or not to tip is just the tip of the iceberg, pun intended. Like you, at one point of time, I never felt there was anything wrong with the concept of not tipping. But, having been witness to a much superior culture where they do tip and don’t think much of it, you do begin to question a lot of things around you.
Everytime I go out in a restaurant today (and I do go out very often), I educate my co-diners on the importance of tipping, especially if the services have been good. Many of them argue with me the way you do in this blog but I’ve been able to influence at least a few people. Like any other things we Indians have proudly borrowed from Western culture, this example of social etiquette is worth cultivating.
One more thing, like you, I also happen to be a “content writer”. You say you make $20 per hour – I’ll bet most of them are Western clients because you know very well, Indian clients are the worst when it comes to paying freelancers like you and me. After being repeatedly stiffed for my honest payment, I’ve proudly not worked for Indian clients for last six years. If it were not US/UK clients, I would not be able to survive in this profession.
That’s when you begin to thank this people and accept that their work culture is far superior than ours. You start seeing the flaws in your own system.
The fact that Indians like you continue to justify this flawed thinking makes me lose faith about this country.
Anyways, I hope you save a lot of money before you die because a majority of Indians won’t.
In reply to Sahil
How about you address my ideas as a person and not as an Indian? I couldn’t care less about which country either you or I am from. Nations are arbitrary ideas anyway.
Anyway, you can use your logic to say that giving money to beggars is ok too – after all, it’s a flawed system right?
“That’s why you tend to lead very shallow lives and are mostly surrounded by fake, artificial cheapskates like yourselves. I know plenty of examples that resemble you.”
The fact is, you know nothing about either me or my life. You’re welcome to discuss the arguments here, but you’re making an ass of yourself if you pretend to know squat about me by reading my views on tipping.
But please…go ahead. Validate your half baked ideas in your fantasy world to feel good about yourself if you have no other way.
There are many good things about American culture. Like free speech. But tipping is not one of them. Learn to be critical and reject bad stuff instead of kissing the ass of “American culture” in general.
I of course like the American work culture. What the hell does that have to do with tipping?
Ok bhagwad,
I have been a server for 15 years. I have also worked in a paper mill, produced and directed theater, acted on stage, sold water filters, painted houses, bugled at a racetrack, played music in jazz and rock bands as well as orchestras, and have worked in telephone sales. To name a few …
Working as a server is by far the most difficult job of any I have ever worked. You wrote, “While it might not be easy, there are plenty of jobs which are much worse – shop floor workers for example. And I’ve been a shop floor manager, so I know.” Have you been a server? If you have not, then being a shop floor manager does not in fact give you the information needed to ascertain the difference.
I have no problem with your reticence to tip. This is your choice and you may see the tipping culture however it suits you. But there are some humanity issues i wish to discuss here.
“As far as I’m concerned, you’re the equivalent of a conveyor belt that brings me my food and a computer into which I input my order.”
“… deserve to be a waiter for the rest of your life.”
“Face it – compared to other jobs, being a waiter is unskilled.”
These two and a half statements…(plus others but we can stick to these)… are incredibly ignorant.
Imagine having ten tables in your working section. One is the editor of Newsweek and eight of her uppity female friends. On another table is Tom Brokaw with a lunch guest. Kathie Lee Gifford is sitting at the table directly next to George Lucas’s table. Bono is at the corner table. Four other tables are venture capitalists and media moguls all highly regarded in their fields. The last and most secure table has remained open… Bill Clinton has made a tentative reservation. Now please don’t kid yourself into thinking I am bullshitting you. I am not.
You now have some of the most powerful people in the world eating in your section. EVERY one of these people has specific dietary wants and needs. EVERY one of these people expects preferential treatment. How are you going to give it to them??
You will know every dish and every ingredient in those dishes. You will know every wine and which wine best partners with each dish and said ingredients. You will have memorized any special requests any of these customers have given in the past. You will remember who you can be friendly with, who you can rush a little, who you must be brusque with, and who you can straight up high five. You will time each course perfectly for every table and while doing so never let a glass sit empty. I choose to work without a pad to write orders down. YOU will have to use a pad… no doubt. You will gauge each tables mood and attitude to determine who you can let slide a little when the above mentioned 9 ladies get their panties in a bunch over something like extra balsamic. You will smile and be gracious when the kitchen fucks up a dish and you must bring it back to the kitchen and face a chef who you can be damn sure is NEVER wrong.
I have worked in diners all the way up to the highest caliber restaurants. I have taken food courses. I am currently on track to receive my sommelier certification. I am at the moment working vineyards so I can best know the product I sell from top to bottom. My favorite food is Indian food. I GUARANTEE I know more about it than you do!!
I very well may be some type of waiter the rest of my life. I have paid plenty to educate myself on fine food and service and I intend to bring that education to full use. My understanding of human behavior has become impeccable.
You sir, are an asshole. To even for one second believe that you are in some way shape or form superior to this “conveyor belt” is beyond my comprehension. I DON’T CARE IF YOU TIP!!! When my section is jamming and everyone is in a great mood I know that I am responsible and the energy is something that can’t be explained. There is nothing i would rather do than PERFORM in my restaurant.
You expect me to be grateful and PRAY for you at night if you give me 10%??
How about this… keep your money. Meet me in the parking lot…or subway…or vineyard… and tell me I am “unskilled”… and call me a conveyor belt to my face. PLEASE!!!!
In reply to Lifelong
Why do you find being called a conveyor belt insulting? You can hardly deny that that is exactly what you are to me. You bring me my food from the kitchen. That’s not a bad thing. In fact, it’s tremendously useful.
Don’t understand your outrage here. So being a conveyor belt is hard work. So what? You also need to know what “unskilled” means. It means there’s no formal training required to be a waiter. No school or course you have to take. You may well learn “on the job”. But it’s still unskilled labor in the technical sense of the term.
Touchy, touchy.
By the way, I always thought that Americans were proud of their First Amendment. I certainly envy it. Yet it’s obvious that you don’t appreciate Freedom of Expression. From what I’ve seen you’re one of the very few Americans who dislike it.
Interesting…
In reply to bhagwad
Just because a person is an unskilled laborer does not mean they are not a person. If you value another human no more than a conveyor belt then I think you have some reflecting to do.
And of course we Americans value the first amendment. It does not mean there are not going to be social repercussions for what you say though, and it doesn’t mean people are going to refrain from thinking you are a douche or seeing you in an unfavorable light based on what you say. If you want to go into a predominantly black area, for example, wearing a shirt that says “I hate n!ggers” even with the ! in place of the i, you won’t be legally prosecuted for that but you are still probably going to have a very unpleasant experience.
In reply to AverageJoe
Oh, I’m more than willing to put up with social repercussions. Do read what the GP had said about meetings in dark alleys etc and tell me you think he’s referring to “social repercussions”.
Also, please tell me why you get the impression that I think an unskilled laborer is not a person?
In reply to bhagwad
“Bottom line: I don’t want to know your name, or interact with you for any longer than I have to in order to place my order. As far as I’m concerned, you’re the equivalent of a conveyor belt that brings me my food and a computer into which I input my order. Of course, I won’t be rude. But don’t expect me to interact with you any more than I would with some stranger.”
And then there was a reply in which you speak of unskilled labor.
In reply to AverageJoe
Ok…you quoted me accurately. But I don’t know where you get the impression that I think a waiter (no matter how unskilled) is anything less than a person.
In reply to bhagwad
Why are you wasting time trying to talk to the conveyor belt?
Again Bhagwad, maybe in a society like India people have no choice but to be out for themselves, because in India, people have to work 14 hour days, 7 days a week, just to survive… People in India have to be out for themselves because they are desperate and if they do not protect themselves they might not be able to eat..still…in 2012 despite having one of the longest continuous civilizations on the planet.
And then you, from India, come to the US, for what, I don’t know…I imagine to take advantage of some opportunity not available in India, and you bring that mentality with you. Why does what you came to the US for not exist in your country?
The United States, at one point, though it was economically prosperous, had a fairly low standard of living and what changed that was altruism. People in high places who said “You know, I don’t want to live in a society where we have child labor. Children should be in school.” or “We should not allow landlords to make their tenants live in buildings of such disrepair. Let’s pass laws against this and enforce them.” And then there was Henry Ford, who believed people should be paid wages they can live on, and who also believed that the people who made his cars should be able to afford them. Most Americans make more than minimum wage due to those same philosophies and same altruism. And most Americans support a minimum wage because it protects the average American to some extent. If you want your society to have a high standard of living you have to enable that standard of living to exist.
I was thinking, in the US it’s customary to tip waiters to the extent that minimum wage for such jobs is below federal minimum wage. In India, it’s customary to pay bribes to officials for them to do their job. I thought maybe you were opposed to tipping because you saw parallels with bribery. I wondered, is there a difference? Yes, there is. The customary tip rate is agreed to be between 15% and 20%, and it’s paid at the end of the meal so you still get your food. A bribe is whatever the person asking wants, and you usually must pay it up front. Minimum wage for tipped positions is based on the notion of getting tips and there are tax laws in place to deal with those tips. Government workers in India get a salary that, while it might be low, is completely independent of the concept of getting bribes. They are always under the able and hushed even when they are known to be common place or expected. Tips support a system that works to most people’s advantage in the long run. Bribes are detrimental to systems and undermine them.
If your beef with tipping is for some other reason, fine, but at least consider what I said in my first paragraph.
And waiters kneel on their knee not to be your friend but either to hear you better or rest a bit. They are chatty with you not in hopes you will give them a better tip, but because they are acting what is considered as polite and appropriate in American society. You are misjudging what you don’t understand.
In reply to AverageJoe
What has any of this got to do with India? What, just because I’m an Indian you think you’re speaking directly to my soul or something?
Let’s just focus on the actual topic.
In reply to bhagwad
Thanks Bhagwad. Its pretty insulting, as an American, when an American preaches his “high morals” to others that do not comply with Western philosphies. Lets get back to talking about how stupid tipping is.
Another point i never addressed, if a waiter earns a wage of $10/hour, do I still have to tip?
In reply to bhagwad
It has to do with India because you come from India and you were raised in an Indian culture. The culture we are raised in, to a large extent, shapes our perspectives and philosophies, and I made an attempt to understand your perspectives….which is a lot more respect than others who disagree with you have given you.
If you think I was attempting to appeal to you in some spiritual way, then I fear we have a very big rift in communication….I don’t even know why you would assume this has anything to do with spirituality.
It just has to do with understanding the bigger economic picture.
CommonSense:
This isn’t actually about morals but standard of living, but you are spoken like a true, self loathing liberal American. But of course, in the spirit of American ideologies, I support your right to disagree with me much as I support Bhagwad’s right to voice his opinion even though I disagree with it. When it comes right down to it, the United States has been around for only 200 years and has achieved one of the highest standards of living in the world. Indian civilization has been around thousands of years and still lags behind the US in standard of living. I’m sorry if you don’t like that fact, but there are reasons for it. I am not saying America is superior to India in all ways or Americans are always right, and higher and mightier than all others in the world. I’m merely stating a fact. America has greter prosperity and a higher standard of living than India, and a lot of that has to do with mentality.
I’m an engineer (India has a lot of excellent engineering institutions and churns out a lot of excellent engineers) and to solve a problem you have to acknowledge it exists, and the reason it exists, even if those things are a little hard to hear. I would very much like for the Indian people to have a higher standard of living and more prosperity in general but they can’t achieve that with certain elements and perceptions that are prevalent in their society.
The question for the US though is, can we maintain our standard of living and will our society last as long as Indian society? I don’t know. But I do think we can stand to adopt certain elements of other societies to improve our own.
In reply to AverageJoe
The accuracy or inaccuracy of your comments about India are truly irrelevant with regard to my post.
Are you saying there’s no way an American could have written what I wrote?
In reply to AverageJoe
Average JOe, i’m gonna have to talk about some of your points, because they seem a bit off.
First off–i’m no where near what you would call liberal. I’m fiscally conservative and i deeply care for people, but that doesn’t mean i have to tip my hard earned money. Again, I’m an american, born and raised, and love it, but you’re speaking as if America is paradise and India is hell on earth. Have you been to India? I have and let me tell you, men over there are men. They work their butts off and unlike a lot of men here, especially in the last couple of decades, those guys have hair on their chest and work hard. You speak as if America is this perfect utopia with these so called “altruistic” values while every one else is just bad or inferior. Again, have you walked down Crenshaw blvd after sunset? How could this so called “altruistic” society let people even live that way? Have you been to a bulls game in the 90s? The united arena is located in one of the worst neighborhoods in AMERICA. South Bronx? Don’t give me this altruistic stuff. Americans are like every other human being in the world, care about yourself and your family first. Thats what I do. Sure the US has a higher of standard of living than India no doubt, but does that mean that our tipping 15% is correct and their not tipping 15% is incorrect? What are you coming at then? In india, they don’t BS you about anything. You get a receipt and you pay it. Wanna leave a tip? tip as you please. no 15%. no 20%. At the rate we’re going, i guess we’ll have to pay 30%. That’s 30 dollars on a 100 dollar bill, think about it.
Now back to tipping. In America, we have whats’ called salary negotiations. Everyone agrees to their wages. Total 100% capitalism. I agreed to a wage of over 50,000. I wouldn’t accept any less. Wait staff accepted what they accepted, so they should be content with that. If they undertstood the nature of the position, they would not accept the position itself. Its called fiscal responsibility. I don’t feel the need to pay an additional fee when I receive a receipt that indicates I owe the establishment a certain amount. And lets get back to this question. If a restaraunt establishment pays its employees so low, then WHY ACCEPT A WAIT STAFF POSITION? WHY NOT UNIONIZE OR QUIT THE JOB? its called…COMMON SENSE. You cannot by law tell me I have to tip 15%. I don’t care if I look mean, because quite frankly i don’t know the person.
@ average joe–i don’t get it, are you like a Ph.D in India or something? What you’re sayign has little to no relevance to the argument of tipping. When you work for someone, you agree to a wage, and thats final. When you go to a hardware store, you don’t pay the cashier an extra 15% to help you find the phillips. DEJ himself explained that he made over 50,000 as a waiter, so trust me, NOT ALL WAITERS MAKE MINIMUM WAGE. Also if you don’t think wwe have a separate society, or we “love” our poor in this country, please take a nice walk in South Central, Chicago around the united arena, the Bronx, st. louis, birmingham, garey, miami, orlando, newark, camden, philly, parts of hotlanta, el paso, stockton, bakersfield and you can tell me how “equal” we all in america are. If americans had such empathy, such slums wouldn’t exist: yes, slums. But this is aside from the point.
In a free market society, wages will always differ. Wages are not necessarily guranteed. Why is it that Norway, the country with the highest GDP in the world, has no minimum wage? What about up and coming countries like Gulf nations, malaysia, indonesia, and, yes, india? America isn’t the end all, be all in the world, We don’t hold egilitarian views as you mention trust me. We love our gluttony and excess and look down upon ANYONE that doesn’t agree with our Western philosophies and shun anyone that doesn’t go along with the band wagon. The concept of tipping is one of many many examples of that. AverageJoe, I’m an American, and you paint us as this flawless society as most Americans do but guess what, we’re not perfect. India’s not perfect. Afghanistan’s not perfect. Its unfortunate that Americans think that they’re values and principles are so high and mighty and everyone else is low and filthy. Please walk down any street named Martin Luther King Blvd and you will see the very same desperation for food that you describe in India (hopefully if you walk in the Los angeles or Houston Martin luther king blvd you’ll make it out alive). Bribery as you mention is pretty rampant in india, but hey, that’s negotiated upon, remember that. I can’t negotiate my tips. I would love to, but I can’t. Also, tips are given after the service. Both bribes and tips aren’t required by law. Minimum wage is a sham. Its a great way to keep poor people here in the US poorer, because employers can’t afford to pay such low skilled labor $8/hr. A small mom and pop cannot afford to pay a potential employee who isn’t skilled such a high wage. Guys like Gary Jonhnson and Ron Paul are right on when it comes to the government and economic regulations. The government should stay out and let the market dictate things such as wages. This way, we can end such frivolous things.
Look i work hard for my wages and when i give out money to people, I make sure I have reason to do so, For example if a bill from a restaraunt comes to me requiring $50 dollars, why should I pay more than I am legally bound to do so? Why is no one answering this question? I’m not legally obliged to pay ANYTHING except $50 dollars. I’ll look like a douche, but I really don’t care what a server cares about me. I’ve got a family and friends and the server is probably not one of them. I’m also bein fiscally responsible.
BTW in the 70s/80s a 10% tip was customary (as a kid, we’d give 10% tips and the servers would be ecstatic by that). The 90s introduced the 15% tip. Now we’ve got the 20% tip. So are you telling me in 2020 were gonna pay a 30% tip? Maybe a 50% tip in 2050? Like all human beings, servers are normal people in that they will never be content with what they’ve got. 20% is better than 15%. 30% is better than 15%. But that now carries a lot of frivolity. I’m sure by the time i retire, i’ll have to argue that a 60% tip is too much. At the rate we’re going, we’re gonna have to end up paying that much and thats preposterous! And please do NOT use inflation when arguing this, because a 15% tip on a small bill and a 15% bill on a large bill is what it is.
btw 14 hour shifts–i’ve done them. I know here in the US lots of people do them. Grow some hair on your chest and work. I don’t mean to sound so rough, but you want to make money? Earn it! I guess people in India have the right idea.
In reply to Common Sense
I know enough about India to know that it’s silly to compare the poverty in America to the poverty in India. You have either not looked into the subject very well or you are exhibiting misplaced political correctness.
I don’t agree with libertarians very often but I do agree on two points. Things will be priced as high as the market will bare and wages will be set as low as the work force will bare.
But who compromises the market? People like you and me. And who compromises the work force? People like you and me. If people will bare 14 hour work days at 7 cents per hour, then that is what we will have. But our ancestors decided that they did not want to live in a society like that. Do you really life to be more miserable than it has to be? You’re right in that not everyone is as altruistic as Henry Ford or I am. Some people want life to be difficult just because their life was difficult and they resent the concept that others don’t have to work as hard as they did. But should we keep standards of living low on that principal?
Others aren’t nearly as altruistic in that they have no reservations about paying people 7 cents an hour when they themselves are so wealthy that paying all of their workers $10 per hour wouldn’t put a dent in their life style. They like to point out that without them, these people wouldn’t have a job, and that might be true in some instances but it doesn’t change the fact that they are exploiting their workers.
I think you mentioned that Norway doesn’t have a minimum wage and has a high GPD. That might just be because Norwegian culture is more altruistic than American culture in certain respects.
In reply to AverageJoe
Trust me i’ve seen the poverty of both the US and India. If i had to only choose between a ghetto in America like Camden or a slum in India, i’ll chose the slum. You can disagree, but you stating that I am somehow trying to be politically correct is a bit of an insult, but i’ll let that pass.
Anyways lets look at how economics works. Lets say Bhagwad opens up a store. He is accepting workers. I go there and tell bhagwad, you know bhagwad, i cannot accept any less than $10/hr. You go into the store and tell bhagwad that you’ll happily accept the position for $6/hr. Our qualifications are equal. Who do you think bhagwad will chose? Thats how free markets work. Now there are a lot of people in the US that would not mind working for less than minimum, but the minimum wage regulation itself prices them out. A lot of unskilled teenagers would be happy to work for $4/hr. Why not its their first job. Now lets say bhagwad has that same store. You, AverageJoe are extremely qualified and have a proven track record, but you demand $12/hr. I on the other hand demand only $6/hr, but my track record is not nearly as good as yours. If bhagwad is smart, he would chose you, as you are more likely to make bhagwad’s store succesful than me. Comprende? Thats how free markets work. In capitalist societies, there is no room for altruism or “lovey touchy feely” Thats for liberal hippies and for communist countries such as the USSR. worked pretty well for them, didn’t it?
You indicate that “our ancestors” didn’t want us to live on 7 cents an hour. No, that is not necessarily true. They wanted us to live free with liberty. If I don’t mind making 7 cents an hour, that s up to me to decide, not big brother. If I don’t want to tip, thats up to me to freely decide, not the young entitled college kid thats serving me. Thats what the US is all about–liberty and freedom. Sure, freedom is a two way street, but thats what its all about. Want altruism? GO to france, go to greece. Their debt criss will show you what being altruistic towards your people in the commercial arena cause the commercial landscape.
Back to norway–fiscally conservative. Big brother doesn’t tell people how much they have to accept or give in terms of payment. Lets go back to the store analogy. Lets say that bhagwad has that same store and he needs workers. Again, lets assume no goverment regulation such as minimum wage. Now according to the area bhagwad lives in, the average store clerk makes about $5/hr. BUt bhagwad can’t afford that, so he decides to pay only $2/hr. The position is left open for months because no one wants the position. This forces bhagwad to lose money as he is forced to perform the work that the potential clerk could have done. Time is money. Bhagwad thought he saved money, but he lost time and efficiency, leaving him with little profit. See how economics works now Average Joe? Minimum wage is actually a way that Wal mart tries to price out Mom and Pap stores. They eliminate the competition by setting an arbitrary wage so no one else can compete.
BTW sorry if i used you in a negative way at all Bhagwad, i’m just tryign to create an example for AverageJoe.
Back to tipping. In a free market, if bhagwad had a restaraunt and paid his employees from HIS pocket on a commission basis, not requiring a tip, guess what would happen? The wait staff would do great at the custoemr service level and still make more money. Customers would be happy and return.
I know it sounds ideal, but now lets get to reality.
Again, the kids that work as waiters agreed to a wage, correct? it is part of their contract that they agree to the set wage of the employer. The consumer is at an establishment to consume. Part of the law of commerce is the establishment and the consumer create an bartering agreement, in our case, money. The consumer is contractually required to fulfill whatever is on the receipt that the establishment provides, which in it of itself is a contract. By law, nothing ADDITIONAL is required. Then why would I want to pay something additional if I’m not required to do so? It may be the “altruistic” thing to do sure, but in a free market capitalist society, we don’t play by emotions or peoples feelings. Your wages are not my problem. I’m a consumer, i consume, that is it.
America is as altruisitc as India and as Malaysia and as China. The difference here in the US is we have a bunch of pompous americans that think they are entitled to heaven on earth. I see people complain about working 14 hours rather than being thankful to the Creator that they have a job. Let’s start living freely. I don’t feel the need to have some college kid dictate how much ADDITIONAL i should pay him. If i don’t want to, then I don’t want to, its my free choice to make.
USA!!! hahahaha
In reply to Common Sense
o and simple question averagejoe…WHY 15%? why not pi%? Why not 13.45554645%? When i was a kid it was 10%. Why are waiters now DEMANDING (not requesting) 20%? At this rate, will it go to 30%? What about 50%?
The law of human nature tells us that more money is better, so kids that are already highly entitled tend to ask for more. 20% isn’t as satisfying as 30%. Where’s the line? Do you see how arbitrary the system really is? Do you see that if I dont tip, it is going against the ideals of American liberty and Freedom, as I am not allowed to make my own personal choice (remember, by law i can techncially tip whatever i want).
In reply to Common Sense
Doenst make sense at all! And if its a big bill, that 15% is more then I earn in an hour! If i am paying for the bill by credit card, I have to struggle to pay off the bill. If they work on 10 tables, then in just 1 hour, they earn more then i do in a day.
Server is easier then my job, and clearly higher pay.
And any dumb fuck can do it.
In reply to Amanda
Actually your dumb fuck ass probably couldnt do it. Aww you struggle to pay for a dinner bill. Well then maybe your priorities are a little mixed up and maybe you should consider a hot pocket for dinner next time? Hmm? Maybe save those precious dollars of yours ? Do you have any idea how hard it is to take care of 10 tables in 1 hour? Let’s say for instance each table is a 4 top. That’s 40 people getting service at once. Each person getting everything thing they ask for in a timely manner by 1 lone waiter. That’s 40 different personalities at once. Probably at nighttime…do you work nights? Comfy day job? Well then no shit you’ll make less money cause you have a CAKE job.
You’re an idiot.
In reply to Common Sense
You do realize the entire conerstone of your viewpoint on this subject relies solely on the fact that you’re OK with being a stingy prick right?
This is you….
“Hey look at me I’m a stingy prick! Hahah the law doesn’t say I have to tip so I won’t tip! Lol! Aren’t I a dick? I’m totally cool with that! I have lots of dick friends and we’re all just HUGE DICKS and we don’t care what you think! It’s great! Not having any type of empathy with my fellow human is the shit. Empathy is for pussies. Maaaaannnn…see that homeless dude over there? Aint no law says I gotsta pay him so fuck that homeless fuck! Law says I do NOT have to hold the door open for old ladies. Nope. Not gonna do it. Fuck that lady. She was probably good looking in her youth. Fuck her. Law says I do NOT have to let this guy trying to get in my lane over so ya know what? FUCK HIM. High five to my dick friend, slap! Law doesn’t say I have to go to my mothers funeral either so you know what? I’M STAYING HOME! WOOOOT GO USA!”
You’re an idiot.
In reply to Common Sense
You do realize the entire conerstone of your viewpoint on this subject relies solely on the fact that you’re OK with being a stingy prick right?
This is you….
“Hey look at me I’m a stingy prick! Hahah the law doesn’t say I have to tip so I won’t tip! Lol! Aren’t I a dick? I’m totally cool with that! I have lots of dick friends and we’re all just HUGE DICKS and we don’t care what you think! It’s great! Not having any type of empathy with my fellow human is the shit. Empathy is for pussies. Maaaaannnn…see that homeless dude over there? Aint no law says I gotsta pay him so fuck that homeless fuck! Law says I do NOT have to hold the door open for old ladies. Nope. Not gonna do it. Fuck that lady. She was probably good looking in her youth. Fuck her. Law says I do NOT have to let this guy trying to get in my lane over so ya know what? FUCK HIM. High five to my dick friend, slap! Law doesn’t say I have to go to my mothers funeral either so you know what? I’M STAYING HOME! WOOOOT GO USA!”
You’re an idiot.