It never fails to shock me how a tip is demanded in the US. People simply refuse to listen to reason when we (yes, there are others!) tell them that leaving a tip isn’t necessary. Well, I’m hoping for too much here, but if you’re a waiter, here are 5 reasons why I will try my best not to give any money to you and why the reasons for tipping are crappy.
1. You act as if you’re my best friend
Just leave me alone ok? I don’t want to bloody chit chat with you. I want food. FOOD! Get it? It’s a restaurant. I go there to eat. I go because I want either Italian food, Chinese Food or something else which I can’t get in a McDonald’s. So I come to a restaurant to fulfill my cravings for it. I will pay for what I value – food. Not you.
Christ, you offend me – kneeling down next to my table, pretending to like me and chatting as if you’re my best friend when it’s obvious that all you’re after is the tip! I’m not a bloody money bag you know. I will pay the bill which includes the cost of the food, the environment and the salaries of the people involved – nothing more.
The only way to get money out of me that I don’t have to legally pay is by prying it out of my cold dead hands…
Bottom line: I don’t want to know your name, or interact with you for any longer than I have to in order to place my order. As far as I’m concerned, you’re the equivalent of a conveyor belt that brings me my food and a computer into which I input my order. Of course, I won’t be rude. But don’t expect me to interact with you any more than I would with some stranger.
Image Credit: cafemama
2. You don’t get paid enough
And this is my problem how exactly? It’s astonishing that customers are expected to make up for your employer’s cheapness in not paying you a decent wage. Please include the full cost in everyone’s bill thank you very much. I’ll pay it because I have to and the charge is there for me to see.
What’s really funny here is that no one seems to criticize the employers! All criticism is reserved for non tipping customers instead of the owners of the restaurant for not paying a decent wage. Wtf! Could it possibly be because you guys know you can make much more by tips and under report your income to the IRS?
3. You’ll spit in my food if I don’t tip you?
And I’ll shoot your kid if you don’t give me a million dollars. Seriously, am I even hearing this right? You’re actually using the threat of blackmail to make me pay you? Well as long as you’re openly claiming to be a criminal it’s all right I guess.
Fortunately that’s why I prefer buffets. Listen apart from it being illegal, this shows your poor integrity. But if you spit in someone’s food because they didn’t give you money you didn’t earn, then you’re a loser and deserve to be a waiter for the rest of your life.
4. Bringing me my food isn’t worthy of being paid extra
Did you cook it? Did you invent it? No. You picked it up and brought it to me. While it might not be easy, there are plenty of jobs which are much worse – shop floor workers for example. And I’ve been a shop floor manager, so I know. Face it – compared to other jobs, being a waiter is unskilled. You get paid what the market will think your services are worth. You don’t deserve more for your work over and above what your employer should pay you.
5. Money doesn’t grow on trees
I expect you to be grateful and pray for me at night if I tip you 10%. Be happy I gave you anything at all. I worked for the money in my wallet and by giving you some I didn’t have to, I’m doing you a favor. Learn to remember that when people give you something they don’t need to, it’s a favor. You don’t complain that they didn’t give you more!
By the way, the same thing above applies to all professions that demand tips including those on cruise liners.
So now that you understand why I won’t give you money you don’t deserve, stop with the “oh how could you?” attitude. I can. And I will.
Update: Here’s a rebuttal of the many silly justifications for tipping that people have given in the comments section.
I applaud you 100 percent !!!! Nobody should be forced to tip. Everything you wrote is exactly how I feel!!!
So we shouldn’t reward people for good service?
Go fuck yourself, you pompous windbag.
In reply to Loretti
you know, when you go to your grocery store, people HAVE TO stock the shelves, fill the inventory sheets, and of course, check out your products, but they don’t get a tip (and often don’t receive minimum wage). What gives?
They provide good service in that they timely stock the shelves adn remove expired products. See the previous post.
EMT’s save your life–ie the best service. They make a little over minimum here in Cali, yet they are FORBIDDEN to accept tips.
I’d say saving your life is the best service, so why can’t they receive a tip?
In reply to Common Sense
can’t sue them if they provide lousy service either– fair is fair. If you die on an EMTs watch try to collect from them damages. An EMT doing his job is protected almost everytime due to liability and malpractice insurance that the employer takes on. The city or the company becomes liable for all except gross negligence. Comparing that to tipping is a pretty flimsy strawman CS. Do you want the EMTs prioritizing patients through triage or who has the sawbuck? EMTs are public servants or contracted public servants and no tipping is a professional code. That is not the case with waitstaff.
If you wish equal pay for everyone, better move to a different country with different customs. I prefer our system to just about everyone elses, Kalifornia excluded.
In reply to redleg
I may be missing something here but no one is stopping you from tipping in other countries. Of course, there are places that will throw your tip back in your face because they perceive it as an insult and a bribe. But hey! Live and learn right?
In reply to redleg
Isn’t tipping technically a “socialist” practice? Thank about it. You make more than the wait staff. You essentially bribe them in order to provide better services. So you are relinquishing more from YOUR pocket in order to equate the wait staff’s pay to something closer to “fair.” To me, that is the very definition of socialism, redleg.
The EMT argument is excellent, because it is another job out of the long list of jobs provided in the world. EMT, scientist, janitor, sanitation, construction, you name it.
Again, redleg, like I mentioned, tipping is voluntary. Other jobs, as I mentioned, don’t receive tips, such as EMTs. There are plenty of private companies that also provide similar EMT services and they also are forbidden from receiving tips.
You don’t think restaurants have liability insurance? Most organizations carry some sort of liability. The fact that a restaurant places a “caution, slippery” sign on the floor with the janitor is mopping usually is a form of liability in itself. You slip, it isn’t the restaurants problem. They clearly warned you of the slippery floor.
Back to the voluntary argument. It is MY decision to tip or not tip. Whether it be 12%, 10%, 50%, 100%, 5%, I tip as I please. The other day, I got something for $5 and I tipped $4. That is an 80% tip. Am I still a bad tipper?
Again, redleg, you cannot in any fascist manner dictate how I tip. I don’t care if you conquered the Soviet Union, if your father was at Pearl Harbor, if you broke the Berlin Wall, or if your Grandfather was sent by Wilson himself to Germany, I still won’t tip. It is a voluntary practice. It is not legally required by law. Therefore, I can do as I please, right?
No one is stopping you to tip 100% redleg. You can do that as you please, but it is your discretion. You are “socially” attempting to provide the wait staff “fair wages.” Sounds like a bunch of socialist, Obama hypin’ stuff to me :)
In reply to Common Sense
CS– brother I can’t see for all the smoke in my eyes from your strawman burning. I have said repeatedly you don’t have to tip. Nice ad hominem attack too. I have said I do. You have said you don’t. I am not providing fair wages at all– simply tipping for service well provided. You are the one on a tear about making sure their pay is low and barely sufficient. That sounds like the equal apportionment of misery that socialism is well known for. I have also said if you wish to say other nations have better practices– you may feel free to go there. I prefer the company of Americans and all of our quirky customs just fine. My time abroad has taught me to love my country because I have seen how the rest of the world lives.
Don’t start getting all mad at me now– is it because I dissed your man-god Ron Paul? Sorry about that– they also said he was a pretty good family doctor before he became a corrupt politician.
and bhagwad I have never had anyone refuse a tip and no one ever had the temerity to ask me to give them more. i would not take it well if they did– because I agree that it is not an entitlement. I however am rarely in that position because I appreciate the freedom of being able to go out with family and friends and tip well for service received. And at home I am usually armed. An armed society tends to be a polite one.
In reply to redleg
And tipping isn’t a socialist practice– socialists frown on someone receiving more than any other simply because of service. Communists like to shoot you in the neck after you’ve dug your shallow grave.
If so, I haven’t been to that place. I tip everywhere I go. And when I travel as a civilian I’m usually not armed– and to date no one has thrown a tip in my face. Australia, Korea, Pakistan, India, Israel, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, India..et al. I do respect the places that state they do not accept tips, but if nothing is said I tip for service anyway. Sue me.
In reply to redleg
I’ve had tips come back to me in India. The staff there are proud to do their jobs for whatever pay without additional incentive. There are many on this comment thread who’ve said the same about servers in China. Or Japan.
In any case, no one is stopping you from tipping so you can practice your culture anywhere you want. It’s not American. The difference is that only American servers expect tips. It’s an insult when someone takes your generosity for granted and demands you give them more.
Beggar: Can I have some money?
Citizen: Sure, here’s a dollar
Beggar: What’s this crap? It’s customary to give $10!
Citizen: Go #&^% yourself
In reply to bhagwad
Bhagwad’s whole point is wait staff DEMAND kindness. the beggar example is a perfect example. Beggar’s cannot be chooser’s redleg. This is Capitalism, comrade. Not all people make the same wages. I make probably a lot more than the wait staff. Their wages do not occur to me, as I am a consumer in a free market capitalist market, so leave the neo-con (ironically you are arguing that wait staff should receive a higher, “fairer” wage, which befuddles me) arguments out of it, ok bro?
In reply to Common Sense
Never had waitstaff do as you say. Perhaps the problem is with your attitude. I have only said that I tip well because I appreciate being able to go out to eat in a nice setting. I appreciate the small things. I do not give money to beggars– if I feel so inclined I will buy them food but I never give cash– if you have time enough to beg you have time enough to work and there are too many scam artists out there. I give to charities of my choosing to do good, because I see their work being done. I see the waitstaff working and I tip them for service received because I appreciate their work. Tipping for all jobs is not appropriate and sometimes it simply doesn’t make sense. I don’t have a problem with the situation at all– fair wages or no, but I appreciate what they do. You don’t. That’s OK. I don’t want to reason you out of it since this was evidently not reasoned in. I have not told you what to do despite your insistence that I have. I have simply told you that that the people seeing you not tip will think of you as a cheapskate, and I would as well. If that does not matter to you, then why is it bothering you? The rest is just an elaborate rationalization of your behavior. I brought up the fact that my father was a WWII vet to show his life experience that was different from yours, and that people in the 60-70s did tip and tip well. Not everyone did. I brought up the fact that I am a vet to display why I am grateful for the small things in life. You don’t appreciate veterans that much is clear and is irrelevant. You don’t appreciate the same things. That is OK and I do not demand that you do. Mores the pity that but that is your issue and not mine
In reply to redleg
RedLeg–now we are on common ground. Kindness, gratitude, etc., are humanistic traits that do not require demand. My kindness to wait staff should be that only–kindness. A percentage should not be stuck onto it. Perhaps I feel that 10% is more than kind while others may feel that 15% is not enough. The fact that we all have such opinions would allow for a more efficient system. Some pay 10%, others 15%, otehrs 5%, etc etc. This is the gamble that wait staff took when they signed up for the job in the first place.
Wait staff are already being payed by their employers for their service. $2.13 is the hourly wage they decided to accept. It is not my concern they decided to sign up with employer X and only receive $2.13. ALso, the employer has the right himself to pay his wait staff more than $2.13. I am not arguing for fair wages. Fair wages equals complete abomination to capitalism and decreases efficiency. Heck, if you sign up for a job and get paid $0/hour, that is your issue. My issue is to consume. I am a CONSUMER. You wages, social ills, veteran status, etc do not concern me. In a capitalist society, humanism is pushed aside. Obviously, the very computer keyboard you are typing on has parts that have been manufactured in low wage Asian sweat shops. This is a reality of capitalism–get more for less.
Am I proud of my veterans? Absolutely. Does it have bearing on my tipping? As I mentioned, absolutely not. I love my veterans, however I do not care if you destroyed Nazi Germany single handedly–let me tip as I please.
I’m glad you remained on topic and came back full circle as to what you arguments are. You are simply asserting that you FEEL others are being cheap simply because they do not tip as much as yourself. In an individualistic society, you have to understand that not all others will feel, think and act as you do. Some will tip 5% and that is their right. Some will tip 50% and that is also their right. You can call people cheap, and I can call people like you, who overly tip, financially irresponsible. Those are simply opinions.
The fact remains: tips are not legally obliged and therefore, I can tip ANYTHING I want, whether that be 10%, 50%, pi%, 12.05952%, or 0%.
In reply to Common Sense
Brother I have been on topic the whole time– you simply weren’t listening. If you descend to ad hominem attacks and burn up your lovely strawmen do not complain when you are met with scorn and the same in return. Agreed on all the above– It is my right to call you cheap if you do not tip and it is your right to tell me to go to the devil for it– the recipe for offensive free speech is not governmental regulation–but more free speech. I use the example of the Westboro Baptist Church– offensive free speech that some religious groups sued to halt. The Supreme Court ruled that they could not infringe even hateful free speech. So the Patriot Riders were formed for funerals and offensive free speech was counter by more free speech. I do not want the gov’t to tell you what percentage to pay– tip as you see fit…I will not also claim that the wages waitstaff receive are fair– they should be what the market can bear– and right now here in the US of A the law in general says I as an employer can pay sub-minimum wage to waitstaff as they are supplemented by tips. This seems to work acceptable though not optimally. The waitstaff can argue for whatever wages they get–true– but in the main they are not able to effectively do this because the restaurant system is one of the most volatile– over 50% of new restaurants fold within a year. More regulation will either increase that number or decrease the number of new startups because the owners can’t make it to the starting gate. Not tipping doesn’t assist that restaurant making it. I, myself, am very grateful to have the opportunity to go out to eat and I tip, and usually well, because I know the alternative. As a customer in a restaurant you are there for the food, the ambiance and to spend time with people you either care about or are doing doing business with…not to rectify the social ills of the United States. You can tip or not as you please but I and many others will have little respect for you and will probably call you cheap if asked. If you don’t care that is your issue– so is your guilt for not tipping. Elaborate rationalizations on why you don’t tip do not impress me– be honest about what you are doing, while you are doing it. That garners more respect than anything else.
In reply to redleg
The whole idea for me is to convince other people to not tip as well. The more people who stop tipping, the better.
We should do what is right and not care about what others think.
In reply to bhagwad
This is also one of my ideas as well. People should stop tipping. IT is YOUR right to tip as you please, however I want people to begin tipping other, let us call them “non standard” tips. So 10%, pi%, 5%, 60%, it should be up to you. No standard “15%.”
Also, I want wait staff to realize that their EMPLOYER should be paying them and they should be satisfied with the pay. Whether they are receiving $1/hour or $100/hour, it is on the employer/employee contractual relationship. If the pay is too low, find another job.
Their are PLENTY of other service jobs that don’t receive tips. What abuot the clerks at your grocery store? They have to make sure all the fresh food is fully stocked for you and they don’t receive a tip. Someone earlier used this example and I found it genius (his/her name was sometimes tipper).
Call me cheap? Fine. I consider the system, however, to be entirely financially irresponsible upon the consumer. The wait staff has essentially created a system of demand upon the consumer in order to DIRECTLY aid their income. I don’t give a damn about their income. I just want to consume.
Shocker that a sand nigger would feel this way…
I particularly love how he said he wants chinese food and not mcdonalds…
It’s not worth explaining how the system works and the costs associated with the food/beverage industry to someone who probably thinks gays should be beheaded in accordance to sharia law…
In reply to Not Surprised
Isn’t it ironic how people inadvertently expose their own bigotry when accusing others of the same?
Too late now – your comment’s posted!
In reply to bhagwad
Actually I have no problem exposing my own bigotry against people like you… Sorry… You’re not behaving in a civilized manor, your actions hurt the person not the establishment, and you’re wrong on more levels than I can even begin to express…
I, however, am sorry that I misspoke… I did not realize you’re Indian and I apologize for my inaccurate racial slur… I am relieved to see that you come from a long line of people who believe in holding down others to benefit themselves in caste systems and murdering women in kitchen fires if their families won’t pay more in dowry… That’s a good way to get money without working for it… You should try that… I hear it’s really successful in New Jersey…
In reply to Not Surprised
“Sorry… You’re not behaving in a civilized manor, your actions hurt the person not the establishment, and you’re wrong on more levels than I can even begin to express…”
Actually I don’t think you understand what “civilized manner” means. I haven’t abused anyone, or gotten personal on this forum. Quite unlike you. So perhaps you want to rethink your comments on being civilized.
“I am relieved to see that you come from a long line of people who believe in holding down others to benefit themselves in caste systems and murdering women in kitchen fires if their families won’t pay more in dowry… That’s a good way to get money without working for it… You should try that… I hear it’s really successful in New Jersey…
“
Uhmm…what? I don’t know if you’re high right now, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend you didn’t just say something completely nonsensical.
In reply to Not Surprised
Well, not surprised, assuming you are the typical American cowboy, i could argue that you should go back to slaughtering native americans and enslaving africans for the benefit of expanding your nation’s borders.
Stick to the point. Join the klan if you want later, but stick to tipping please.
I hope you know that people work hard in restaurants to make jerk offs like you happy. 90% of what you bitch about is in THE JOB DESCRIPTION. You are a sub human piece of slimy whale shit. Take your cheap ass to a burger king. Dont come to a FULL SERVICE restaurant and not expect to spend money. Fuck you and everyone who thinks like you.
In reply to Dave
so other occupations don’t require hard work? have you ever worked in sanitation? Have you worked in sewage treatment? Tell me that isn’t hard work.
Maybe… if you knew how to cook you wouldn’t be complaining. Better yet… maybe if you had a good job that PAY’S YOU MORE you could afford to go out to eat where you are WAITED ON.
Maybe you are used to someone taking care of you for no pay but you’re grown up now and your momma isn’t cooking your meals…hence, you go out to eat because she was too darned busy cleaning your underwear to show you how to cook.
I bet you got up and walked to the drink machine and got your own drink refills when you went to dinner. Probably never ever ask your waiter or waitress for anything.
But hey, I feel you. I shouldn’t have to pay the salesperson who sells me a car either… and why should I with your thinking. I mean heck, the salesperson didn’t build the car. They just gave me the keys to take it for a test drive. It’s the car manufacturers problem for not paying their salespeople right?
And teachers… what’s up with that. They just tell you to read pages in a book and then test you on what’s in the book. Why not just read the book and call in to take a test over the phone to a bunch of education telemarketers? Sound good to you?
Shop floor manager. Hardly skilled. In the U.S. those are tech jobs at best. Most shop floor managers workered their way up but here in the U.S those jobs have all but left. Want to know why? Because poorer countries will do it cheaper.
But here’s the deal.
What goes around comes around. Stop being so cheap dude.
The U.S. might all take your advice one day and close our borders to everyone. It’s not OUR problem other countries offer poor jobs opportunities, poor pay and poor living conditions.
Which answers your own question on your blog….
Are Indians finally becoming Responsible?
NO!
P.S. And stop telling me your name is Bob when I call Bank of America and telling me you’re located anywhere but India.
;)
In reply to O’Wise One
i’m an American and I don’t tip. Now what?
In reply to Common Sense
you’re cheap. But we’ve covered this. :)
In reply to redleg
so Indian’s are bad because they don’t cheap and I’m bad because im’ also “cheap?” OK, so Americans are cheap, while the rest of the “brown world” is considered savages because they are also cheap?
What is wrong with me being cheap? So what? Go ahead call me cheap.
I simply don’t appreciate fools like the above poster playing the “race card.” I’ve seen plenty of whites skimp out on tipping while i’ve seen plenty of Indians tip well over 25%. Call the author of this blog cheap, but don’t play the race card. It makes the rest of us Americans look like fools.
In reply to Common Sense
I didn’t and I haven’t. I have noted that stereotypes are sometimes based on truths and the owner of this blog is one who perpetuates the stereotype of Indians being cheap. Not all Indians are cheap. Not all Americans are great people either. If you’re cheap own it. That will get you more that bhagwad’s list of imaginary rationalizations– his ad hominems and strawman arguments have brought the fleas out of the woodwork though. Racism is racism whether perpetrated black on white, black on brown, or white on black or any skin color or religion for that matter. But stereotypes are based on profiling and things generally true. (i.e. all blacks in the city voted for Obama and are on welfare with 3-4 kids from different mothers– this is not always true, but it is true enough that you need to separate yourself as a black man in a city from that stereotype– it is just a fact of life– if you do not wish to be thought in accordance with what you look like– you must change your appearance to society) Don’t blame me if you are acting in accordance with the stereotype– my comments were based on hey– way to raise the level of the argument here– you make it too easy for a supposed intellectual who is supposed to be much smarter than the average populace by acting in accordance with a stereotype– to place you in that box and forget about you. You rail against it naturally, but bhagwad invited the comparison by his list of rationalizations– also based on stereotypes.
In reply to redleg
And what stereotypes have I mentioned pray?
Sorry to call you out like this but one can’t just let unsubstantiated statements pass unchallenged can one?
Sometimes I feel you’re arguing with an imaginary opponent in your head who says things known only to yourself.
In reply to bhagwad
1. You act as if I’m your best friend– brother– all waitstaff don’t do this and if it appears that way to you– check your attitude at the door. That’s your rationalization of stereotyped behavior.
3.. You’ll spit in my food? Really? Not a rationalization- really?- ever happened to you? You might deserve it but no waitstaff would be able to get away with it more than once even to a truly deserving asshole. Stereotype.
You are basing your cheap behavior off stereotypes– instead of saying you are frugal with your money because of this reason. You list is just a plea for the rest of us to be cheap because you are. And you seem to feel guilty about that. I do feel that I am in a battle of wits with my opponent being unarmed, though.
Has no one ever called you out on your bullshit before? Or do you just ignore them in your echo chamber and keep repeating the same arguments like a mantra?You’ve simply done that to every criticism on this thread– that’s OK too– it’s your blog do what you want– but it is no way to have your opinions taken seriously.
In reply to redleg
1. That’s not stereotyping. It’s their job description. Most waiters on this comment section have admitted as much.
2. I never said any waiter ever spat in my food
And you seem to feel guilty about that.
Oh you wish you bad boy you!
It doesn’t have to be bad– but we think it is. If that doesn’t bother you (and it obviously does) why do you take offense? My real issue is that you have to justify your cheapness with rationalizations. You don’t want to tip but sometimes do– why? Do you not believe in this value or do you simply not wish to tip for service and begrudge having to tip more simply because you feel guilty. You have no value system behind your belief (which makes it worthless) because you violate it when you don’t wish to feel guilty. If you truly belied this you would simply not tip, not apologize for and not try to prove to everyone that you are correct in this by giving us a false flag list of your rationalizations. It is like trying to prove that going to the gym is bad for you because you simply are too lazy that day to go to the gym. Be honest about it.
In reply to redleg
Being called “cheap” doesn’t bother me at all. You haven’t answered what I had asked in the first place.
Namely…what does it mean to be cheap? You’re using a word that I don’t really understand. Is “cheap” the same as “like to save money”? How exactly are you using that word?
In reply to bhagwad
I am using it it as a prejorative– you don’t have to take it that way. You aren’t saving much money by not tipping. You say you are doing it because otherwise it is akin to paying a bribe– but sometimes you tip anyway. Shopping for the best value is not being cheap– being overly hard with your money when better alternatives exist is not a quality to admire. You can afford to eat out and you choose not to tip– that is ignoring a social custom to your own benefit. But you are being cheap for other reason than you can, and that it is perfectly legal for you to do so. It does seem to bother you that I think you’re cheap, and that probably extends to many other areas of your life. You tend to choose lower quality, lower price over every other factor. That doesn’t always hold true. A value that you hold up as a belief that you cannot live up to is not a value– but an excuse. Hence a rationalization.
In reply to redleg
You might want me to feel bad if someone calls me cheap, but believe me when I say I don’t care. I’ve been a blogger for seven years and I have a very thick skin. Sticks and stones and all that. But in this case I don’t even understand what you’re saying – this is purely academical to me and I suspect there’s some illogicality here that I want to expose in your argument.
I just asked you what you think the word “cheap” means. You haven’t explained that to me. Until you do that I have no idea what you’re talking about. Then we’ll decide if it’s pejorative or not.
In reply to bhagwad
at some point you are going to have to open a dictionary and decide for yourself– you know what it means because you have had the conversation with your wife about tipping more because you didn’t want others to feel that you were cheap. I’ve explained it enough and your command of the english language is good enough to judge context. If you can’t figure it it out, as a battalion commander of mine once said– I can’t understand what it is that you don’t understand. You just seem to be the sort of person who wouldn’t give money to anyone unless there is the force of law behind it and choose to accept lower quality, lower price every time in your decision on what to buy. And you have a perfect right to feel that way. And I have the right to call you a cheap bastard as a result of it. You have the right not to tip. I have the right to tip. I was saying I do not respect people for doing so and I call them cheap– not in a good way–because in English words can have multiple meanings based on context and subtle sarcasm and dry humor. Your guilt that you document is your own– I do not want you to feel guilty– honestly I couldn’t really care about your welfare or mental state as I have documented above. So own your guilt and try to peel back your stereotyped rationalizations and figure out what your values truly are– because not tipping is not some great moral crusade of the 21st century– and be honest with yourself and others as to what that is. Honesty about your motives will perplex many but you will at least know who your friends and enemies truly are.
In reply to redleg
“You just seem to be the sort of person who wouldn’t give money to anyone unless there is the force of law behind it and choose to accept lower quality, lower price every time in your decision on what to buy.”
Excellent! So this is your definition of “cheap”. Though I haven’t mentioned “lower quality” anywhere, let’s run with this.
You seem to feel this is a bad thing (since you obviously consider the word “cheap” to be an insult. May I ask why this is bad according to you?
“Your guilt that you document is your own”
Strawman much? Maybe it bugs you that I don’t feel guilty and this is why you’re so keen to attach it to me. Sorry, but I can’t help you there. I couldn’t give a shit.
But this is neither here nor there. I feel I’m closing in your irrationality and this is why you’re getting flustered with trying to bludgeon me into feeling guilty. So I’ll politely decline the hook and drag you back to the point.
Given your definition of “cheap” as above, why do you feel this is a bad thing?
your list is your guilt and so is the post about you talking with your wife in a restaurant talking about tipping so people would not think you cheap. No Strawman there– or if it is, it is one of your own making. I don’t want you to feel guilty. I have said, repeatedly, if you don’t tip– just tell me why and you cannot honestly do that. You have some stereotyped rationalizations about this but no value based reason–except for the one I have deduced. You’re a cheap bastard. That’s pejorative in my mind, but maybe not to yours. Unless you are trying to deprive me of live, property or liberty it is no matter to me. Personally I wouldn’t cross the street to piss in your ass if your guts were on fire– but I will not make you tip. I will judge you for not doing it. Any guilt you feel is all yours– you have referenced it enough. All I have asked for is honesty about it and given my opinion on why I and others think you’re cheap and how I have no respect for someone like that. You are getting closer to honesty on the subject but you’re not quite there yet.
In reply to redleg
There you go again with the imaginary voice in your head.
My wife’s guilt is not mine. Since we’re not discussing her but me, let’s stick to that. Unless you want to go off on a whole new tangent and insult my wife. Please do so if you feel like it. I won’t be surprised.
I also see you have conveniently avoided answering the main question and covered it up with a load of nonsense. This may not be deliberate so I give you the benefit of the doubt once again. (See what a nice guy I am?).
So to drag you back on topic (again), here’s the my main question:
Given your definition of “cheap” (see above), please tell me why you feel this is bad.
P.S. In case you’re too lazy to scroll up and see what you wrote, here is your definition of cheap “You just seem to be the sort of person who wouldn’t give money to anyone unless there is the force of law behind it and choose to accept lower quality, lower price every time in your decision on what to buy.”
I hope you will clarify this very simple and straightforward question for me. Give me reasons why you think the above behavior/attitude is a bad thing.
As I have said, numerous times in this thread. Just because I say your cheap and others say your cheap and mean it like it’s a bad thing Sparky– doesn’t mean you have to take it that way. But act like you do, don’t be surprised when busy people (not some of the closet racists who have appeared) see your actions and place you in the stereotyped “7-11 running cheap Indian” box and move on. I personally see in you a meanness of spirit, a specific wanting of character, shady values and lack of appreciation for hard work but I will not ask that the government to regulate this as they would probably simply produce more of it or do it very badly. Tip or don’t tip, it’s up to you but own why you don’t want to– honestly and let other either praise or hate you for it. Don’t dress it up in your rationalizations. I know cheap people–good people– who grew up in the depression and will not have others serve them when they can do for themselves. But they own their reasons for acting that way and don’t imagine transgressions by waitstaff you haven’t met yet for your frugality.
In reply to redleg
Fail. It’s obvious now that your obfuscation is deliberate. Answer me this question or admit that you’re irrational and wrong.
Given your definition of cheap: “You just seem to be the sort of person who wouldn’t give money to anyone unless there is the force of law behind it and choose to accept lower quality, lower price every time in your decision on what to buy.”
Please show me how this is a bad thing.
In reply to bhagwad
Cheap doesn’t have to be good or bad– but it seems to have gotten a rise out of you. Cheap without a honest value behind it is my issue and I can outline my reasons as I have (again) above:
A (meanness of spirit)+B (specific wanting of character in this case honesty) + C (shady values brought upon by listening to liberal professors) + D (lack of appreciation of hard work) = cheapskate who likes to stiff waiters. You imagine transgressions from people you have never met to justify being cheap without truly admitting why you are cheap– you don’t like to part with any money not strictly allocated or billed for. That is the core issue here. What you haven’t answered is why you feel that way– I am afraid if you are looking for an absolute answer it has to come from you. Did you grow up in a dirt floored hut and had to do for yourself and you now feel you only trade in kind? (I have a feeling this is not your case– but the good people of the Depression in the 1930s here had some of the same reasons– I have one aunt who refuses to throw away aluminum foil– big ball of it under her sink– but she knows how she got that way)
It is pejorative only if you think it is. I cannot give you an absolute like water freezes at 32 F. I can only say that most will think you cheap, and not in a nice way. You like checklists and an absolute right and wrong. The world, she no work like this. I can tell you that by our norms you will thought of as cheap and not in a good way. Even with the good people I mentioned above it is one of their damages from that time. I would not be so outspoken on this except that I don’t think you know why you act this way– and logic has nothing to do with your argument. Find your reasons and live true to them– don’t dress them up as elaborate rationalizations. Even at the best of times only 51% will agree with you but if you are honest with yourself then it should not matter.
In reply to redleg
May I just comment on how amusing it is so see so much nonsense in one post? No judgment though. Now coming to it:
“Cheap without a honest value behind it is my issue “
I suppose the bare fact of wanting to save money is a dishonest value. Well done sir.
All your other attachments of the word “cheap” are figments of your imagination.
Bottom line: Never make an explanation any more complicated than it needs to be.
In reply to bhagwad
now you are revising your argument– you have a list of rationalizations up as to why to don’t tip– all underlining that you are cheap without telling us why. You have a previous post with your wife and you bemoaning the horrific tipping practice and deciding to tip this time in America because of the guilt you feel over others labeling you “correctly” as cheap. You are willing to forswear you absolute practice of not tipping in order not to feel this guilt– which tells me it is not a true values system to you– you are willing to violate it not to feel guilty– and so you are not addressing why you are cheap in the first place. You seem to have gone back to the “I’m Indian and Indians are cheap” set in a previous post and I have to tell the fit of the curtains is not attractive. Occam’s razor– you’re a cheap bastard. Stop telling anyone you are anything but.
In reply to redleg
I do see why you have a blog though– no one would put up with your nonsense in real life. I have to mow the grass and put up a fence. Nice echo chamber here. If you are what an intellectual looks like no wonder our Universities are in such disarray.
In reply to redleg
My explanation was exceedingly simple– you are a cheap bastard. You are the one with the list of stereotyped rationalizations. It’s like explaining to an adult how to drink a glass of water. You simply don’t get it. A pribbling ill-breeding harpy. Off with you.
In reply to redleg
Lol – “Off with me…” On my own blog? :D
Perhaps you were talking to yourself?
In reply to redleg
My wife pays when we go out to eat. When it’s just me, I never tip and have frequently happily left the few cents of change on the table because I was too lazy to place it in my wallet. Go figure.
Sorry, but Occam’s razor is very sharp and you just cut your own throat with it by bringing out an explanation that has too many extraneous factors when a simpler one will do the trick just fine.
I like to save money. It’s the only reason. All your other side issues are in your head. Occam’s razor remember?
Don’t play with tools you don’t know how to use. They have a nasty habit of turning against you.
you list it as reason number three. Why is that? STEREOTYPE in your list of reasons. Big logic fail there. Hyperbole (exaggeration for sake of effect) diminishes your argument– not that it took much.
Provide a pleasant dining experience is in their job description. Not be their best friend– that is your damage. Some restaurants and servers have different ways of doing this. Again, hyperbole based on active stereotypes.
I say again– you don’t have to feel guilty. But you seem to feel it– the lady doth protest too much. I gives a rat’s ass about you or your mental state because your mother didn’t breast feed you enough. Whatever.
In reply to redleg
and I have my answer about your echo chamber now. Thanks.
In reply to redleg
You know, it’s pretty obvious that some people need guilt as a hook on which to base their arguments.
Without that you have nothing. I mean seriously – your entire position on this forum here has been about “Oh the horror! People will call you cheap!!” Without that, you don’t really have a leg to stand on do you?
Let me share a secret with you. Given you definition of “cheap” as wanting to save money, where I come from that is a virtue. Those who don’t save money are politely known as “suckers”.
Not that I’m calling you a sucker. Oh no I would never do that!
In reply to redleg
you already have– I have no issue with what you think of me and mine. I care not a whit what you think about my actions either. I feel damn little guilt about anything I have done because I know why I do those thing and it is conscious choice for me. I have made hard choices and had people die under me because of those decisions and I regret or feel guilt over none of them. I have never said I don’t save money and value what I have– but being cheap for no reason that I like to make a penny squeal has no value to me either. I am grateful for what is around me and tipping for service lets me let that be known. I like that too. You don’t. My definition of cheap is not simply wanting to save money– I said you tend to choose low cost, low quality over everything else– I have said I do not always do that– sometimes I buy a quality hammer for twice the price because it will last a lifetime– unlike the cheap Chinese hammers at harbor Freight. But I will buy the cheap product– if it suits my need– but I am not frugal without cause. You are and to me that is pejorative. You feel differently– that is fine too. Labeling me as a sucker doesn’t do anything for your argument and indeed quite detracts from it. It kind of puts you on par with the closet racists who have shown up here– spurred by your stereotypes.
In reply to redleg
“But being cheap for no reason that I like to make a penny squeal has no value to me either.”
Oh don’t worry. I frequently leave pennies on the table. They’re more hassle than they’re worth.
“I am grateful for what is around me and tipping for service lets me let that be known.”
The rest of us simply say “Thank you!” Each to his own.
“I said you tend to choose low cost, low quality over everything else”
A: This is completely a figment of your imagination since I don’t recall saying anything of the sort.
B: You haven’t shown how this is a bad thing. Back to square A.
“But I am not frugal without cause.”
An oxymoron. By definition being frugal is by itself the cause. To save money.