It never fails to shock me how a tip is demanded in the US. People simply refuse to listen to reason when we (yes, there are others!) tell them that leaving a tip isn’t necessary. Well, I’m hoping for too much here, but if you’re a waiter, here are 5 reasons why I will try my best not to give any money to you and why the reasons for tipping are crappy.
1. You act as if you’re my best friend
Just leave me alone ok? I don’t want to bloody chit chat with you. I want food. FOOD! Get it? It’s a restaurant. I go there to eat. I go because I want either Italian food, Chinese Food or something else which I can’t get in a McDonald’s. So I come to a restaurant to fulfill my cravings for it. I will pay for what I value – food. Not you.
Christ, you offend me – kneeling down next to my table, pretending to like me and chatting as if you’re my best friend when it’s obvious that all you’re after is the tip! I’m not a bloody money bag you know. I will pay the bill which includes the cost of the food, the environment and the salaries of the people involved – nothing more.
The only way to get money out of me that I don’t have to legally pay is by prying it out of my cold dead hands…
Bottom line: I don’t want to know your name, or interact with you for any longer than I have to in order to place my order. As far as I’m concerned, you’re the equivalent of a conveyor belt that brings me my food and a computer into which I input my order. Of course, I won’t be rude. But don’t expect me to interact with you any more than I would with some stranger.
Image Credit: cafemama
2. You don’t get paid enough
And this is my problem how exactly? It’s astonishing that customers are expected to make up for your employer’s cheapness in not paying you a decent wage. Please include the full cost in everyone’s bill thank you very much. I’ll pay it because I have to and the charge is there for me to see.
What’s really funny here is that no one seems to criticize the employers! All criticism is reserved for non tipping customers instead of the owners of the restaurant for not paying a decent wage. Wtf! Could it possibly be because you guys know you can make much more by tips and under report your income to the IRS?
3. You’ll spit in my food if I don’t tip you?
And I’ll shoot your kid if you don’t give me a million dollars. Seriously, am I even hearing this right? You’re actually using the threat of blackmail to make me pay you? Well as long as you’re openly claiming to be a criminal it’s all right I guess.
Fortunately that’s why I prefer buffets. Listen apart from it being illegal, this shows your poor integrity. But if you spit in someone’s food because they didn’t give you money you didn’t earn, then you’re a loser and deserve to be a waiter for the rest of your life.
4. Bringing me my food isn’t worthy of being paid extra
Did you cook it? Did you invent it? No. You picked it up and brought it to me. While it might not be easy, there are plenty of jobs which are much worse – shop floor workers for example. And I’ve been a shop floor manager, so I know. Face it – compared to other jobs, being a waiter is unskilled. You get paid what the market will think your services are worth. You don’t deserve more for your work over and above what your employer should pay you.
5. Money doesn’t grow on trees
I expect you to be grateful and pray for me at night if I tip you 10%. Be happy I gave you anything at all. I worked for the money in my wallet and by giving you some I didn’t have to, I’m doing you a favor. Learn to remember that when people give you something they don’t need to, it’s a favor. You don’t complain that they didn’t give you more!
By the way, the same thing above applies to all professions that demand tips including those on cruise liners.
So now that you understand why I won’t give you money you don’t deserve, stop with the “oh how could you?” attitude. I can. And I will.
Update: Here’s a rebuttal of the many silly justifications for tipping that people have given in the comments section.
redleg,
Maybe you didn’t notice, but I have clearly explained the meaning of ‘cheap’ more than once to bhagwad in the discussion above. And I have also mentioned how in this very article under point # 2, he himself has used the word cheap when he writes :-
“And this is my problem how exactly? It’s astonishing that customers are expected to make up for your employer’s cheapness in not paying you a decent wage.”
So having himself used the word ‘cheap’ in the same context as others are using for him, bhagwad continuously declares his failure to understand the meaning of the word ‘cheap’. So, you can understand if he is really having a rational discussion or merely debating mindlessly.
Also, it is he himself who has associated ‘bad’ with ‘cheap’. Even when I simply explained that being cheap merely means being tight with one’s money, it was him who brought in the question of why is ‘cheap’ bad.
Now that he has finally accepted that :-
“I like to save money. It’s the only reason.”
One wonders why he had to put up so many reasons (5 actually) for why not to tip. He should have simply titled the article as – “I like to save money, hence, I won’t tip you if you’re a waiter”.
Simple. :)
In reply to Purple Cloud
Not so simple to poor bhag
He wouldn’t know simple if it bit him in the ass
I don’t think anyone really talks to him in real life. I am beginning to wonder if he even has a wife.
This is funny because tonight my last customer (an Indian couple in their 40s) tipped me $1 on a $40 tab…They were well-dressed seemingly business type who had come to the restaurant (Indian) and basically stood up and looked over the menu while the man was talking non-stop on the phone. Basically after 10 mins they approached me and said that they were going to “get their friend and show him the way here” I had to roll my eyes out at that because a) we’re located in the main street and easy to locate 2) I am pretty sure they wanted to check out the other restaurants and “price-check” for comparison. After about 15 mins they returned and I coyly said “oh your friend is not with you?” and they looked embarassed for a moment and said “they got busy” LOL! The street we’re located at has 3 other Indian restaurants (all of them much more expensive). In fact the whole street is lined up of expensive restaurants as it is in Downtown Toronto and rent is very high. Of course they returned later at night after seeing what others have to offer.
In fact I’m seeing this as a trend with Indians. There are banks nearby that employ IT folks from India on periodical assignments and they are usually the worst tippers out there. I even get asked for “discounts”. If I do get a tip, it’s usually $1 or $2. Forget 15%, I’m lucky to get 5% (I am not kidding!)
On top of all of that I regularly get asked to bring green chillies, lemon (which I slice up), red onions (again I slice them out in the prep room), chaat sauce, hot water – all free of charge.
One time this younger Indian couple came, they ate around $45 worth of food. They asked for the check and paid $0 in tips. They insisted on a booth intended for a group of 4-5. After they paid, they just hung around as if everything was normal. Even though I am complaining about instances, I never show my frustration out on customers. The couple hung around after they paid their bill to chat without even looking embarassed. Of course I felt bad but there’s nothing I can do.
In reply to Geets
but tips are not legally required, so you have to deal with that fact. You should have an auto-grat system at your restaurant, making tips required.
Why should I give you money when it is not legally required on my behalf? Shouldn’t it be up to me how much I give you? Whether it is 5%, 10%, 15%?
Why should I pay you for doing your job? Do you pay the clerk at your grocery store for stocking the shelves, cleaning the aisles, organizing the vegetables/fruits?
It is called work. Work is difficult. I have a job, so does Bhagwad. So does Purple cloud. So does RedLeg. Work is not supposed to be fun. It is work. You are the won that agreed to your wages. I suggest you find another job that pays higher and go with that job. There are plenty of them out there.
Work for sanitation for example. They start people at $12-13/hour. I worked for a juice company right off the bat. I got about $18/hour as my FIRST JOB. This was DURING THE RECESSION as well.
In reply to Common Sense
You keep repeating the same thing over and over again that they aren’t legally required. Most customers aren’t that cheap so it’s an isolated incident. I love my job as I’m a student and it’s flexible. Jobs can be fun and I certainly think mine is.
Relax there buddy. You seem all worked up about nothing. Of course people are going to judge you for tipping a certain amount. Likewise, people will judge you on your behaviour as in anything else. Try taking a date and not tipping, it’s mad ackward.
The rest, irrelevant.
Echo Chamber
Love you guys…I’ll be here all night. Don’t forget to tip your waitresses.
In reply to redleg
cheapness is still not a bad thing. It is simply me being financially responsible by keeping the money i am not contractually obliged to give. Again, tipping is not legal, so what is the big deal?
REdLEg, what is up with this “holier than thou” issue? Is it the war vet neo-con thing? I mean c’mon bro, lay off, hahaha.
If you TRULY didn’t care that Bhagwad or I don’t tip, then you wouldn’t NEARLY be commenting as much. My primary goal is to show that tipping is a scam. My secondary goal is to convince people to stop feeding into this status quo. My tertiary goal is to convince wait staff either to demand better wages or find another job. Hurt the employer.
Let me give you a simple example. I get paid $25/hour. Another company says they want me and they will pay me $30/hour. I tell my employer pay me at least $29/hour or I will leave. If the employer does not comply, guess what? They’ve lost a talented employee to their competitor.
That is market economics. It has nothing to do with “clients tipping me.” It is about the business end directly from my employer.
With that in mind, if, say wal mart, is paying so much higher than restaurants, then why work for restaurants in the first place?
ALso, why is $2.13 so low in the first place? You decided that wage, now own up. Start cutting things in your life. live with your folks. eat nothing but potatoes and milk all day (trust me I did that for years and it makes a difference). Stop socializing with your friends if it costs money. Don’t start a family yet.
I’m the consumer and my opinions at your establishment are more important than your own. THis is how business works.
Redleg, you are arguing on the HUMANISTIC point of view, which is fine. In business and market economics, however, humanism is irrelevant. People get their jobs outsourced, deal with it. Your computer and your keyboard were probably manufactured in China by a 14 year old kid making $1.50/hour. Deal with it. Your clothes were probably manufactured in Bangladesh by a 10 year old girl making $0.50/hour. Deal with it.
it is capitalism. Globalization. Wait staff should realize this as well. You will be paid low. You agreed ot the wage. Own up and deal with it. I will remain cheap. I will remain frugal. Your employer will also be cheap and frugal as much as h/she can. I personally do not blame the employer. If he can legally pay you $2.13 at minimum, then why not (at the same time, he also possess the right to pay you $10/hour, it is on him)? Deal with it.
In reply to Common Sense
its fun just poking him. I have offered my opinion– you have offered yours. Fairness is not my issue– it seems like it is yours. My point is be honest about it without trying to make everyone do what you cheap bastards do.
In reply to redleg
“its fun just poking him.”
As a substitute for a rational argument no doubt.
In reply to redleg
Dear Redleg, it’s amusing to see how quickly your arguments have deteriorated once you were challenged at the very foundation of your “cheap” argument and why you thought it was a bad thing.
You’re like the emperor who suddenly realizes he has no clothes on. Without the hammer of guilt, you have nothing. Your entire foundation is based on the fact that people don’t want to be perceived as “cheap”. As soon as you met someone who didn’t give a shit, your entire basis was shot to hell.
Please do come back once you have anything more substantive to say other than “lol” :D
In reply to bhagwad
your echo chamber your rules
I don’t have to use guilt on you– you are doing that enough for the both of us
In reply to redleg
The rules of logic do not bend to my whim. Not even here.
Having said that you need to try and use it as a weapon sometime.
In reply to redleg
red leg, i don’t mean to go off topic, but it seems that your time on this blog has been how everyone HAS TO AGREE WITH YOU!!!
For example, you were throwing that whole vet stuff, and this whole anti-Ron Paul stuff, adn the fact that I disagreed or Ryan or Bhagwad somehow makes us sinners in your eyes.
So what? I don’t agree with you and you don’t agree with me. Move on bro.
You tend to go off topic when I mention certain things like libertarianism or ROn Paul etc and I become the bad guy because I don’t agree with Almighty RedLeg? What gives? what is up with the Messiah complex?
I don’t tip unless I want to nor will I be coerced otherwise. Deal with it. I won’t agree with you and that doesn’t make me a bad guy. You don’t agree with me and that doesn’t make you a bad guy either. This whole thing about your dad tipping 20% in the 60s (apparently he was the only one cause back in the 80s, nobody would tip more than 10%) or being in the Pacific Theater or you being as merciful as a god or somethin’ is gettin old and stale.
I get it. You think you are amazing. You must be the Messiah sent to save mankind. I guess me not agreeing with you will result in me going to Hell or something, right? Well, I better change my disposition. Everything you say, Almighty RedLeg, must be true. You are the GREATEST human being ever, I suppose. I now must get my self to believe this.
In reply to Common Sense
I have offered my opinion and told you that you can believe what you want. If that means you have to agree with me– you’re wrong, again. You are free to disagree with me. But you have also failed to convince me of your point. You seem to be the one getting unhinged when I mention something about the man-god Ron Paul. Your point on being the all-powerful source on tipping percentages turns into an anti-vet rant when I bring up one small fact that says your opinion is just that– an opinion. I don’t need you to worship me CS– I know what I stand for and am not afraid to say it– you now seem mighty insecure. Just because you say something CS, does not make it true– as I have gone at lengths to say to you. If you have said all that needs to be said– why are you still commenting? This is the internet– you are not going to convince anyone here– and bhag is not coming out of his basement to meet you.
In reply to redleg
OK, yet I still stand on my not tipping, lol no matter what hollow attacks and ad hominem attacks you also type as well. Indirect attacks against my libertarian beliefs and not tipping. It seems this post of yours is more apologetic than anything.
Please. I know what I stand for and I am also not afraid to say it.
The reason I brought up the vet stuff is that I respect servicemen dearly, however even if you are missing a leg and are serving me at a restaurant, this has no bearing on my tipping. I will tip as I please simply because it is under my discretion. No percentages, no doubling taxes, just giving what I feel deserves to be given, that is it.
I’m still commenting simply because I can. And why not?
Back to the main topic at hand–tipping:
My primary goal is to display that tipping is a sham and the practice in itself should be entirely discretionary. No fixed percentages, not doubling taxes or whatever frivolous practices are involved.
My secondary goal is to get people to wake up, remove themselves from the sheep mentality and see for themselves how much of a sham the system truly is. Not worrying about others “feelings” or other’s “conditons” but rather paying for a service, as other services at Wal Mart, or you car dealer, or even your trash (another form of service, technically, and I’d say much more important). You get a bill and that is it. The service is included in the bill as well, since the employer must pay his employees a certain percentage from each of these bills in order to account for the labor at hand. You wanna tip these people? Fine, tip whatever you want. $1, $5, $100, it is up to you. If you tip $100, again it is your discretion, just don’t expect EVERYONE to follow suit.
People should begin to stand up for themselves and live life freely. You make $2.13? Own up. I’m not going to tip simply because service is “subjective” and does not require an exact percentage. Perhaps one day, I have a $20 bill. ALl i’ve got is $3 spare change. I’ll give that as a tip. What is the big deal?
TIpping is discretionary. I will continue to comment on this thread as much as I can. AM I cheap? Fine. Am I doing anything illegal? Well, am I?
In reply to Common Sense
CS– the core point is– you have the freedom to do as you wish. But your argument has little logical basis– yes- perhaps in a libertarian dreamworld– but not the world we live in. You are arguing that going to the gym is unhealthy simply because you are too lazy to go today. Tipping will change when society decides it will change. Taking on tipping as the great moral crusade of the 21st Century will leave you spent and without courage to go on when there is something of meaning to fight against. Tipping is only a symptom of the disease if you are correct in your premise (which is still in doubt). You don’t cure diseases by treating the symptoms alone. Find out what underpins the symptoms and cure the disease– have at that. Tip what you wish– as I have said all along. Just don’t expect people not to judge you for so doing. You are not going to convince the unconvinced of your great moral argument by simply not tipping– you are actually undermining your argument in the court of public opinion. I have never told you that what you do is morally wrong. Just socially wrong. If you are truly a libertarian you should not care what others do– only that you are free to do as you please without harming others– but I sense a bit of the statist in you. That is not very libertarian– in trying to tell me what I have to do.
Interesting link for you bhag
http://ifyoucantaffordtotip.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/idonttip.png
In reply to redleg
Lol. The same website honored my post with its own entry: http://ifyoucantaffordtotip.com/5-reasons-why-i-wont-tip-you-if-youre-a-waiter-3/
I have rarely been more proud :) .
In reply to bhagwad
Proud of “you can read the whole piece of shit here?” comment?
Not really proving your point here
You have self esteem issues
In reply to redleg
My point is proved whenever someone insults me or is outraged without offering rational explanations. It means they’ve run out of ideas.
The fact that you view abuses as a form of argument is very telling indeed.
I must request you however that on this blog, rationality is preferred over insults. Since you’re a guest in my space, I would request you to play by my (not unfair) rules.
I don’t get it. If you have logic on your side, you would have used it by now. But you seem to want to make your point without rationality. It means you’re not secure enough to stand up and say “These are my opinions even though I have absolutely no basis for them!”
That is the sign of a mature person at peace with himself/herself. But you don’t have the courage to do that. Unfortunately everyone else here is not taken in.
Rational arguments, or…how shall I put this…gtfo?
In reply to bhagwad
except that you have done everything but. If you wish me to stop commenting merely say so. You just disagree with me on something that is not an absolute. And you have done your share of ad hominems along with your proxies and burned your fair share of strawmen. Your hands are not clean here– which is why you are up to 1700 comments. It isn’t your highbrow and logical argument.
In reply to redleg
Ok – so here we go.
“except that you have done everything but.”
This is a falsehood of breathtaking proportions. It reinforces what I’ve been saying all this while – you have an imaginary opponent in your head who bears no resemblance to reality.
I challenge you to show me even one insult I’ve used against you. Please don’t ask me to demonstrate the reverse. There are enough.
Have I called you a bastard? You have. Have I talked about your mother? You have. Have I called into question your character? You have.
Actually I challenge you to show me any insult I’ve used towards anyone over the 3 years this post has been up with 1700 comments.
So don’t stand there and have the gumption to tell me that we’re on an equal footing. We’re not. You claim to be an American. You better hope to god I don’t judge all of your countrymen based on how you conduct yourself here. Because if you love your country one would think you do your best to represent it in a good light with your language and behavior.
The fact that I’ve tolerated your abuses on my private space speaks volumes of my desire to let everyone have a say no matter how distasteful.
But I have a vested interest to keep conversation on my blog on topic and clean. So comment here or not. It’s up to you. But I’ve had enough of your diversions and abuses.
Henceforth stick to tipping and the logic of tipping. Or else don’t bother.
“Sometimes I feel you’re arguing with an imaginary opponent in your head who says things known only to yourself.” bhag
“Not that I’m calling you a sucker. Oh no I would never do that!” bhag
my language is little more coarse, I will admit, but I like using it to shake intellectuals up
you are as prone to using ad hominems as any other. You simply use a good command of the language to do it. If you can’t take attacks– as they say– “toughen up butter-cup”. You build strawmen with ease and then complain when it is visited on you. I called you out on the use of cheap stereotypes and then complain when others do as well. Your use of hyperbole instead of logic, not that you truly understand the concept, is breath-taking. Your definition of a logical argument seems to be that I have to agree with you. Plenty do, in fact. Plenty also do not. Who is right? Your opinion is just that– not fact, not law or anything compelling. You are simply cheap. We can have discussions all day long about what that means and if it is bad or not. But at the end of the day it is simply that– an opinion.
So tell me plainly you wish me to begone and I will. But is isn’t for any other reason than you don’t wish me to comment here. And you will have proven my echo chamber point.
In reply to redleg
My language is little more coarse, I will admit, but I like using it to shake intellectuals up
Your preference is your own. Kindly refrain from exercising it in my space.
“You simply use a good command of the language to do it.”
Then I would suggest you do the same. I do not want my blog space turned into a gutter rag.
We can have valid discussions on whether something is a strawman or not. The same with hyperbole. All of that is within the ambit of polite discussion. However I will have no more of your crass abuse floating here. I hope that is understood.
There are many here who disagree with me. The fact that I have singled you out – and not anyone else like Brittany for example who also vehemently opposes my views – should tell you something about your behavior.
Now if you don’t mind, let’s get back on topic. Tell me clearly…and without abuse…why you feel that saving money is a bad thing.
In reply to bhagwad
Bhawag, just forget about that redleg fool and move on. Let’s face it, he has no argument against you. That’s the very reason why he falls back on ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments. Any person who cannot debate without insulting his opponent is not worth debating with.
His only argument is that he likes giving away free money to waiters and anybody who does not do so is “cheap”. Next thing you know he will call you cheap if you don’t hand out free money to beggars and anyone who works in the service industry. If tipping has to become the norm then all professionals irrespective of their profession must be tipped and it should be made a legal requirement so that nobody feels cheated or left out. This selective selecting tipping to waiters must be stopped at all costs. It’s just unfair and insulting to the rest of us who are in different professions that actually requires some skill as opposed to a waiting job.
We already know employers are legally required to pay the standard minimum wage to wait staff if they fail to reach the threshold with the help of tips. So its a moot point whether you tip or not. If you tip, you are only ensuring that the restaurant owner does not have to pay out and he gets to keep all the money. And for the last time, restaurant food is already expensive, so stop making arguments that its cheap.
In reply to Andy
Since I subscribe to this post, I used to enjoy opening my email and reading the different responses. Now it’s just becoming lame and boring since Bahgwad started playing into that guy Redlegs “come-ons”. Now my email is filled with just childish bickering rather than a form of debate. Why did you start playing into this game? I thought you had more sense than that.
By the way I’m a Marine too AND I live in China, and hiding behind the flag or your status as a veteran is complete crap. Tipping has nothing to do with American values, it’s just a “culture custom”. I do however agree that you should tip since it is the custom, but using the FLAG as an argument is nonsense.
Just my oppinion but this post isn’t fun anymore. It was more interesting before this childish crap started.
In reply to Ryan
I apologize. I realize that I’ve allowed the quality of the discussion to be affected by allowing this to go on. I should have put a stop to it earlier. In any case, it ends now.
never said it was a bad thing. Said the way you do it is a bad thing. You are deliberately missing the point. Just tell me I am no longer welcome and I will leave. Or I will express myself in any way I please. If it is a gutter rag– it is yours…not mine. You explanations are hollow and lacking in anything other than opinion. That isn’t logic and anyone can have an opinion. But you have no rational basis behind your behavior other– and I paraphrase– where I come from that is something to admire. You will have to dig a little deeper than that. That ain’t logic, my friend. If you call my behavior jingoistic– look at where you live. We have already had those discussions and you have refused to answer for either your rationalizations or crass stereotypes. You cannot have a discussion with someone who refuses to engage. I am just the mean one pointing it out. So have others but you don’t like to listen. I just have more stamina than most.
In reply to redleg
and you ignored your ad hominem attacks– almost forgot that. But hey– you’ve ignored every other inconvenient piece of information other commenters have brought up– so why not that too. Just ignore inconvenient information– I am sure that will make it go away.
I do not feel that I need to prove myself as an American Soldier to you in any case. I have fought for my country– whether you believe that is up to you– and you already have steadfast stereotypes of my country that I cannot even begin to dent so I do not fear you judging me. Or my country. I gives not a damn what you think of America…but I do note you keep coming back here. Why is that?
In reply to redleg
Yeah you must be really proud of doing the dirty work of the government and shooting those innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan. What a real American hero you are!
In reply to Andy
Andy be careful dude. People like me and this guy keep you safe. Even if he is wrong about the argument, don’t attack the service.
In reply to Ryan
I think you’ll find that a lot of people share the same sentiments as me. Infact an overwhelming number of people do. Being brainwashed by the government and killing innocent people is not my definition of a hero. I would rather you not keep me safe if it means killing innocent people in the name of terrorism while having other vested interests.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. I think you know who said that.
In reply to Andy
Well you’re a sad man if that’s the way you feel about it. Disapproving of the wars (which I certainly do) is one thing. Implying that we sign up to “kill innocent people” and that we’re braininwashed into killing the innocent is a pretty bold accusation. You have no idea the suffering and hardships endured by the servicemen, or what the intentions are. You haven’t seen enough people killed, or had their legs, faces and arms blown off for your sake. I won’t insult you like you do to me, but you really need to re-evaluate the way you look at others.
In reply to Ryan
Ryan–you are ABSOLUTELY correct. People have been playing into redleg’s comments, including myself as I’ve read them. I’d better just stay safe and not play into them as well. Obviously, we disagree, however, redleg is attempting to create supervillains out of those he disagrees with that is fine.
Servicemen, btw, do a GREAT service to this country. I absolutely do not agree with any of these wars, nor do I agree with the concept of nation building and big business lobbying the government to do their bidding as well as the CIA, however I do thank the servicemen.
PTSD, lost limbs, etc is HORRIBLE.
With that in mind, does this have any bearing on my tipping? Absolutely not. I’ve used some hyperbole to demonstrate how, as a consumer in a capitalist society, i need not fret over the ills of those who are serving me including the postman, the sanitation engineer, the custodian, the car salesman, the grocery clerk, the Wal Mart cashier and, yes, the waiter at your local Applebee’s or wherever ridiculous chain restaurant or mom/pap restaurant. As I mentioned to redleg, you could have shot bin Laden, you could have destroyed Saddam’s regime, you could have single handedly torn down the Berlin Wall, you could have single handedly stopped the Korean war, you could have destroyed Nazism. I still will tip you as I please.
Hyperbole? Absolutely. Am I making a point? I hope so.
In reply to Andy
Thanks for the vote of appreciation fella. Never shot anyone who didn’t deserve it and wasn’t trying to kill me too. Never shot any civilians or American citizens. I’ve seen it happen– but it was usually the bad guys doing it. Evil shit does happen though– but mostly it was the military identifying wrongdoing and fixing it before the civilians ever noticed. You are free to have your conspiracy theories though.
And it is impossible to be wrong about this issue. Both of us can walk away with differing viewpoints but it is about whether you tip or not and what people judge you for in regards to it. It is not like murder, which we should agree that is absolutely wrong.
Killing in defense of your country is not wrong, though. That’s what I and others have done. “He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.” is a great quote– but it means someone has to put their life on the line to do exactly that. Denigrating me as a brain-washed victim of an evil government doesn’t cut it. I chose what I do and I do it very well and have for 26 years. As did those around me. You did not– when asked to serve society gave you an out, and you took it for whatever reason. That is your choice. I will note that your grand-father and great-grand-fathers did not have such an out. But sheep do tend to resent the sheepdogs– even when we protect you from the wolf. Only when you and yours are in danger do you cry for the previously hated sheepdog. We do not ask you to love us, but you should respect us. For if you do not you take a great risk with a military separated from it’s citizens. We are not better than citizens, we are simply a society’s soldiers– serving under civilian leadership. You do not want us to be loyal to something else– because the sheep tend to suffer rather dramatically when our loyalty is elsewhere than the Constitution and our civilian leadership.
In reply to redleg
and even after all of that, i still will tip as I please, no matter how much the sheepdog protects us from the wolf :)
In reply to Common Sense
Never told you not to– just told you what I will think of you.
The service issues were brought up by another– that was a response to his way of thinking. Again– he is perfectly free to think that way. He should just remember that if his military is separated from his citizenry, there are dangers in this. I will protect him no matter what he thinks, but generations of thought like his can produce fissures where Soldiers and civilians do start thinking and acting differently. It is not so obscure– the ordinary men of the Einsatzgruppen were simple German men– simple ordinary men who did terrible things and rationalized all of them away. His distrust and manner of thinking will allow more of that kind to be bred.
In reply to redleg
As others have rightly pointed out, I have allowed this to go on far too long. It ends now. Either stick to tipping or please don’t bother to comment. Your posts will be deleted and you would have wasted your effort.
In reply to bhagwad
Fair enough.
Served food for a year… Never demanded a tip. Was grateful to those that did tip and those that did not.
Best friends? I don’t think so, those that want to talk I talked to those that don’t I left alone. The less time I have to spend talking to you the more turn around time I have to get others in and out. Of course I won’t be rude but don’t expect me to waste anymore time on you than I have to.
I won’t complain about what I earn because for every one person that doesn’t tip atleast 10-20 do, some more generously than others. Yeah I get taxed on tips earned per hour and I have tipout but it is my choice to work this job.
So uh spitting in someones food for them not tipping is highly unlikely considering the tip comes after the food is consumed… Blackmail? I guess it could be possible for a repeat customer but generally you have people watching all the time so spitting isn’t much of an option. And seriously why would you eat somewhere if they had the audacity to notify you thats what would happen? Poor choice on your part if this is the case.
I have had a few different jobs such as sales, apprentice sprinkler fitter, heavy machine operator,(economy is slow server job available) and for you not to claim having worked as a server but that its an unskilled job seems like an ignorant opinionated put down to all those who do, you don’t know what is involved. But you are right the establishments could pay more if they wanted. Raise prices then get put out of business by the cheaper competitors that are allowed to pay lower rates by the government. But oh yes california has done it well how many states allow gay marriages? How many have legalized marijuana? Just because its happening in one state doesn’t make it nationwide. And you could compair that its culturally unacceptable in india to tip vs its culturally expected that you tip in the states vs its culturally acceptable to abuse women in the middle east? So I have to follow indias culture and not tip, where I was raised to tip, but its oh so unethical for you to follow our culture cause tipping is the same as abusing women. Moving on to number 5.
So getting 10% requires me to pray to you as a god and be grateful to the person who doesn’t have the time to give or receive a name because as a human being working as a server we are the scum of the earth. I’ve seen multiple posts about america and being free to express ourselves but not the “what how could you?” attitude? Only the tipping is stupid attitude is acceptable? You also mention multiple times demanding tips, who is demanding tips? If someone was demanding tips i highly doubt they would be pretending to be your best friend. They would drop the food and say give me extra money. Or if you want bribery (bribes are payments or promises made in advance) we could hold the food away and say no food unless you tip! No you are obviously eating out without tipping and for some reason you are butthurt about getting some free attitude from our (to some) unacceptable culture of tipping being part of the dining out experience.
However you want to look at it tipping is not required and you can continue to not tip all you want because you choose not to. Servers don’t have any choice but to accept it, at the same time they can choose how they want to treat you in return. If you don’t like it choose not to go there. It all boils down to choices.
In reply to dirtyvegas
“Servers don’t have any choice but to accept it, at the same time they can choose how they want to treat you in return. If you don’t like it choose not to go there. It all boils down to choices.”
I agree it all boils down to choices. There is a minimum level of service I expect of course – bring my food, refill my glasses…and little else.
I want to admire you for questioning the system, “going against the grain” and all, I really do. I completely understand the financial sense it makes. But, I just couldn’t fathom going into a restaurant and not tipping. Not because I lack sense or awareness of a flawed system, but because I couldn’t fathom causing hurt to someone else.
You hurt your server emotionally, because like it or not..no tip = dissatisfaction. They are left wondering what they did wrong. Or, heated because they know they did everything right and are feeling disrespected.
You hurt your server in their wallet, because like it not..tips ARE their only source of income for many states. You could hurl a million excuses for your actions ranging from their decision to opt for this employment, to what the government and employer SHOULD do..but the fact remains that you are hurting someone financially when you act this way.
In reply to Valerie
but isn’t “hurting” the wait staff somewhat subjective? Think of it this way, some wait staff may be perfectly happy with a 10% tip, as low as it is. Others will not be satisfied at all with a 20% tip, right? Emotions should not come into play in commerce. I mean, when you go purchase a car, sometimes you literally ARGUE with the car-salesman, right? ISn’t there a slight chance you are also hurting his/her feelings? I mean, if we are SOOOO concerned with others feelings, then why are we, for example, even excreeting or defecating in a public restroom. the fact that someone is ACTUALLY cleaning up our excremant is worthy of getting someone’s feelings hurt.
Business is mean. Business is hard. Wait staff should know this upon accepting the job position. If they are so concerned about getting their feeilngs hurt, perhaps another viable job position would be more suitable. There are plenty. For example, many local recycling companies need young people to work for them and they pay roughly $10/hour. Why not work their instead of a restaurant and have to rely on a broken system? It is not my responsibility to feed the wait staffs’ wallets simply because they fell prey to a faulty system. I simply want to go to a restaurant and consume, nothing else. Wait staff should fight for better wages, unionize, or quit the darn job and work for other companies. Maybe work in sanitation. Maybe janitorial. Maybe work in construction. These jobs are MUCH more difficult and require your hands (trust me i’ve worked in manufacturing at the food level and you’ve gotta be strong), but they pay better than wait staff jobs, right?
BTW Bhagwad, I sincerely apologize if I ever went off topic. I fell prey to RedLeg’s traps and I do apologize if I went out of hand at all. If I do have any posts that are not and do not remain on topic, please feel free to delete them. Again, I sincerely apologize. However, I must say this is probably the funnest blog i’ve ever written/commented (and continued to comment) on. Thanks for the joy and remember, tip as you please, even if that means 0% :)
In reply to Common Sense
“Wait staff should fight for better wages, unionize, or quit the darn job and work for other companies.”
Haven’t we been over this already CS? It’s counter-productive for the waiters to unionize and demand minimum wage because most waiters, even those working in low-key restaurants earn more than minimum wage with tips. Just a couple of days ago you saw Marc complaining about non-tippers and his low wage and what not before revealing that he earns a cool $15/hour. Many waiters prior to him have admitted earning $30/hr or more.
So why do they still come here and moan? It all counts down to human greed. If you can earn so much just by bringing food to the table and filling up the water glass, then its only natural to try your best to guilt-trip the customers into paying more. This is a scam, nothing else. They want to keep the gullible consumers under the illusion that they are struggling to pay rent and feed the family, whatever helps perpetuate the scam.
They keep bringing up the argument about food being subsidized by their low wages but in reality I don’t see any subsidy at all. On the contrary, restaurant food is very much expensive, so much so that not many can afford to eat out everyday. Either the waiters are so naive that they don’t understand how employers are getting rich off their back by not paying them or they just intentionally keep lying because tipped wage is much higher than fixed minimum wage.
I think its time the servers commenting here came up with some new excuses because the old excuses have already been shredded to dust.
In reply to Andy
I have seen the arguments come up. I am trying to solidify the fact that wait staff wages are NOT as low as they make it seem. Let us take the bartender example. The standard for a bartender tip is $1/drink. Are you telling me that the bartender only serves ten drinks in one hour? Meaning $10/hour? That is a little ludicrous. It truly seems that the tip system benefits wait staff AND employers while guilting the consumer. It is HILARIOUS that the restaurant industry suferred a nose dive during the recession, yet the staffers refuse to change their status quo in order to attract more customers. Food prices are already marked up, reflecting the cost of labor, overhead etc. Tipping is just another smack on the face–an unnecessary cost that the consumer (most of the sheepish consumers anyway) are faced with.
If you tip, it truly is up to you. Wait staff, either take tips or don’t. Know that your wages are from your EMPLOYER and tips are simply nice gestures from the consumers. They can tip whatever percentage they want–10%, 50%, 1000%, 15%, pi%, 12.55555295%, 3.33333333333%. It is up to the consumer only as to how h/she wants to tip.
In reply to Common Sense
It’s not always that simple. Working as a bartender now, I am sharing my tips with anywhere from 3 to 6 other bartenders. Not to mention a couple bar backs. Again, stop assuming that 100% of your tip goes to just one person.
Not that I’m whining.. I do okay for myself. (Thankfully…I don’t know what else I would do with myself if not for this) Just want to point out that it’s not always as black and white as it seems.
In reply to Common Sense
50% of new startups in the restaurant business fail. Low wages for the waitstaff is sometimes what allows a restaurant to break through and establish itself. It is very capitalistic but also not exactly fair or optimal. But it also isn’t fair if the restaurant goes under because it can’t establish itself. That is simply called life.
Tipping allows the restaurant to survive in a bunch of cases– but bad service (not to mention bad food or location or management) will also play a big part on whether people will return to eat there. Not tipping doesn’t help in that equation. But it is your choice. Many people dissatisfied with the service or food will tip 15-20% and then never return (or trash the restaurant to their friends)- which is as bad– but that also punishes the management as well as the waitstaff.
What can I say. I know I learned this on day 0 in Ranger school. Life ain’t fair cupcake. Can’t make it so. Ever.
But I don’t compound the issue by not tipping when I see a waiter/tress busting their butt to do the right thing.
In reply to Andy
Andy, you honestly think all a waiter does is bring food and fill up glasses? Also, tell me how wanting to have money in your pocket as a waiter is greedy, but wanting to have money in your pocket as a thrifty non-tipping consumer is okay? Yes, this discussion is about money. I don’t think its fair to demonize wanting to make as much money as possible when we’re talking about people wanting to save as much money as possible.
lol @ scam. Were you really oblivious to the way dining out and tipping works when you walked into that restaurant? Ridiculous.
As for common sense, I wasn’t speaking about a 10%, 15% or 20% tip. I was talking about no tip at all. I have never argued with someone like that, because I’m not an asshole.
“Wait staff should fight for better wages, unionize, or quit the darn job and work for other companies.”
Why is always about what 2 million other people should do, instead of what you should do?
To answer your question of why some people don’t enter construction, manufacturing, etc… Serving fits the hours necessary for those going to school. This is a big reason why many people wait tables; flexible hours and scheduling. Not to mention, as a woman, I don’t think I’d ever be considered for a construction job.
Again, I’m talking about no tip at all. Because, as we’ve discussed already..its common practice for workers to “tip out” support staff. A 10% tip would atleast cover this cost to them. I’d be satisfied with a 10% tip, because atleast it didn’t cost me money to wait on you.
In reply to Valerie
I went to school without waiting tables just fine. I worked nights and weekends. plenty of jobs do that besides waitign tables. The only reason people wait tables is because it is an easy job, plain and simple. It doesn’t require you to have to enter steaming hot tanks or working in the hot sun AND wait staff receive tips on top of their minimum wage (that they should be earning).
Again, humanistically speaking, tips are nice, however sticking on the percentage is essentially demanding “kindness.” So if I want to tip 9%, it is up to me, even if your restaurant tips out 10%. If your restaurant practices such “customs,” then perhaps they should make it clear to the restaurant attendees that they do and add an auto-grat.
Sure, I am being cheap, but I also want to expose this ridiculous system. Again, if you make $2.13/hour, you should unioinze, demand better wages or quit the job and find a job that pays perhaps $4/hour. It is on you.
RedLeg himself mentioned it–restaurants fail. All small business have the big chance of failing. This is part of the capitalist system. Tipping, however, should have no bearing on the system.
Social customs have NO place in capitalism. It is nice to have customs, however, when they affect people’s wallets, they have no place. I simply refuse to pay you to do your job. That is your employer’s (or employers’) responsibility. Take it up with him.
Going to school and can’t find another job? Perhaps you should find alternatives–community college, not eating 3 meals but 2 instead, workign for 3-4 years before starting school, etc etc. Lot of alternatives out there.
In reply to Common Sense
CS– you are ignoring a fact of life in the restaurant business- at least in America. It’s OK that you don’t tip, but America doesn’t practice pure capitalism– not for a long while. It is one of the reasons we have the Constitution– to enumerate the limits of government over the people, though we continually stray from the ideal. Just like the Soviet Union and Cuba among others never practiced pure communism. Pesky things like people and human nature keep getting in the way. Waitstaff are by government fiat allowed to be paid sub-minimum wage with the expectation of tips. Enough people tip (the vast majority) that it makes up for the cheapskates out there– but it is a fact of life in the restaurant business– and that business has a low enough profit margin in the first place. In order for a a significant number of restaurants to flourish, tipping replaced one of managements costs and made service restaurants work, or at least work acceptably well. That’s a marketplace deal– with some governmental regulation. You don’t like it but that doesn’t mean your system of not tipping will flourish. Taking on tipping before you attack minimum wage is tilting at windmills. Starting with tipping before you get into governmental invasion of business and the marketplace stinks of another rationalization of you being cheap. You are making it your servers fault when the flaw lies with you. You attack symptoms not the disease. And you ignore the pleasant girl who served me and fellow veterans last night while she was busting her ass to serve tables (a college student). (We took up a significant amount of tables and reduced her ability to earn tips) A 20% gratuity for a party of 8 or over was added– but then I thought of cheap bastards like you and gave her 40% over that. She earned it. People make choices on what employment to take– what kind of libertarian are you to tell people what their options are or should be? It is no business of yours, but you seem to be the big L Libertarian that wants your freedom but is more than happy to legislate everyone elses away. That’s a statist, and I have no truck with them. Life is not so cold as you make out– thank god
In reply to redleg
Except that waiters are supposed to make minimum wage if their tips don’t cover them. Most waiters here have in fact admitted to making far more than mere minimum wage – mostly due to people like you who feel bad for them not realizing that it plays into their hands perfectly.
If an employer breaks the law by not making up for minimum wage in the (very rare) occasion that tips don’t cover it, your first and foremost anger should be directed towards them. They are the criminals.
When it comes to breaking a “social custom” and breaking the law, I believe I can tell you where the outrage should be directed.
In reply to bhagwad
Except they don’t…not in all states and not in all places. The majority of states do not (and should not IMHO) have such laws. They should even have minimum wage laws. So if you enjoy a local steakhouse and don’t support it, don’t get all mad when it goes out of business. I reward good service when I see it, and Andy it isn’t any call of yours what I do or do not tip. I don’t always do that kind of tip but when the service is good, I tip my pleasure because I like being able to go out to eat. About 85% of people tip every time in any case. I’ve worked hard earning my money and I am free to spend it as I choose.
In reply to redleg
Thank you redleg. Hope you keep paying 40% tip on all subsequent trips to the restaurant. We need more model citizens like you. Perhaps you can bump it up to 80% next time? The poor server you take pity on will gladly take it off your hands since you don’t have much use for that money anyway.
In reply to Common Sense
Eh, if “easy” is what you want to call it.. Sure, you don’t do the amount of physical labor like some of these other jobs..but I am still on my feet all day. Crouching over and washing dishes. Lifting and moving beer kegs. The hardest part of working in the service industry is not the physical labor (although it is there), it’s the ability to keep your cool while dealing with the often cranky public.
Once again, I’m here to tell you that I am not walking away with $8 per hour PLUS tips. I do not receive a paycheck. The money I make is 100% tips. (Actually, that’s not fair..once and a while I’ll get a paycheck..usually $10 or so for 2 weeks)
No, I will not demand unrealistic wages from my employer, I will not “unionize”. At the moment, I am doing okay. I have good nights and bad nights, but the situation is not so dire that I need to jeopardize my employment by starting some sort of revolution. It’s working for now. Of course, if I had a day where nothing but common senses and bhagwads came into my establishment, I’d be screwed. I’d leave with nothing. No, scratch that, I’d be in the negative.
And again, that’s cool that you’re thinking outside of the box and not accepting something merely because someone “says so”. Great. But you’re taking it out on this workforce almost like it’s their fault that the restaurant works this way. “Getting a new job” or “unionizing” are just unrealistic demands, too.
In reply to Valerie
RedLeg, i have a solution.
Could you start tipping 100%? This way, I don’t have to tip AT ALL even if the service was excellent. This sheepish mentality is EXACTLY why wait staff don’t rail for better wages in teh first place.
So as long as the sheep tip ridiculously high tips, I now can tip LESS than I have tipped before. YAY!!!!!!
So if you tip 100%, I tip 0% (btw I should note I tip a fixed $3), then it averages to 50%.
As Andy said, could you please bump it up? And again, please stop with your sanctamonious veteran stuff. I get it. Thank you, but Ryan was a MARINE the highest honor and you don’t see him talking about it at all until you cheapened it. Yes, you cheapened it.
In reply to Common Sense
Didn’t cheapen anything CS. Tipping is a choice. Ryan is or at least claims to be a Marine. I have graduated from one Marine institution and served with the USMC twice in combat. So what? As you have made clear that has nothing to do with tipping. I merely provided context which you once again took out of context. Hyperbole invalidates your argument. I think you might need some therapy for your inferiority complex vis a vis your decision not to serve your country in a time of war. Or not. Up to you, much like tipping. You were already a cheap bastard. You are not going to get any more cheap than you already were by thinking about me. You’re in Kalifornia. I don’t patronize restaurants in your failed state so you can tip as you please there. If affects me not a bit. I don’t have a problem making up for your shortcomings anyway. You want me not to tip because that validates your existence. You’re not a libertarian at all with those views– you’re a frustrated fascist.
In reply to Valerie
Valerie–unionizing is difficult, but certainly possible. Demanding your employers either higher wages or walking is not difficult. Many industries do this often, yet the service industry does not.
It is a sheepish attitude. Why not stand up for it? I stand up to the fact that tipping is a sham. Even if it hurts people, I need to stay true. Again, social ills do NOT concern me as a consumer. That is humanism and has no place in the market.
In reply to Common Sense
btw, “easy” is subjective. Something may be difficult for you that I find easy. Lifting 200 pound tanks was difficult for me when i was working. Going into hot juice tanks was also difficult.
Valerie–it is called WORK. RedLeg WORKS. Andy WORKS. Bhagwad WORKS. It is called WORK, not play. WORK by nature is supposed to be difficult. WORK demands you to sweat.
Try working in a hospital where you have to deal with cranky, dying patients. Same thing. That is WORK that also requires a certain level of strain.
I’m sure redleg is going to think of some sort of clever comeback about “insurance” or this or that or whatever, but is WORK. All WORK entails a certain level of difficulty that the specific occupation in itself is subject to. We are all human beings and we all, by human nature, find something difficult about the means in which we accumulate our incomes. So no job is “easy.” It is all difficult.
In reply to Common Sense
Do you like to hear yourself talk? No shit it’s called work. You said waiting tables is “easy, plain and simple”. I beg to differ, is all.
In reply to Valerie
It IS easy. Try doing any other work that involves some physical labor like working in mines, factories, construction sites, mechanical workshops, hospitals etc.. You will be begging for your server job back in no time. You might want to become a receptionist if you find waiting tables too hard.
In reply to Andy
I just wanted to state that just because a job isn’t extremely physically taxing doesn’t necessarily make it “easy.” And in many cases, waiting tables can be extremely physically taxing.
You have to move at a fast pace (depending on where you work), sometimes carrying trays up to 50 pounds. You have to constantly work your muscles (bending, kneeling, speed walking, and holding your arms up holding heavy trays of dishes and food).
Your feet get tired easily, and if you aren’t used to moving a lot, than your calves will hurts a lot too.
Besides the physical aspect of waiting, there are other ways a job can be “hard.” Like socially, waiting tables requires dealing with some great people, but also includes waiting on complete and utter assholes. People who have an attitude and no matter what they order, they always will find something, ANYTHING to bitch about. And the waiter still has to compose themselves and be nice to these jerks.
That can get mentally draining VERY quickly. That mental strain is something that a lot of jobs that you consider hard simply because of the physical labor would never have to deal with.
Technically, ANYONE can be a waiter or waitress, but it does not mean they could be a GOOD one. Being a GOOD waitress actually does require skill, and it requires you to have a good memory, good time management, even some physical ability, and good social skills.
It’s ignorant to say that a job is easy or hard just because of the physicality aspect (even though I know that being a Waitress in a fast paced environment can physically kick your ass). That’s like saying being a computer technician or a having a desk job or innovator is an easy job just because they sit in one spot. They don’t do physical labor, but they have to mentally work. Same with Waiters and Waitresses, they may not have THE MOST physically grueling job, but they DO have to have physical ability to a degree and have to have social skills, patience, and to do the job well they need a good mental ability.
I’m sure if many of these laborers who work construction etc went into waiting tables, they would bow out quickly because they’d rather just do work than deal with assholes on top of it like waiters do.
All jobs are respectively hard, just in different aspects.
In reply to Valerie
Work is work, that is all. If I did say that waiting tables was easy, plain and simple, then I apologize. I don’t recall saying that, but we’ve been commenting so long, I might have. Bring up the quote so I can see myself. But work is work and one should do his/her job as h/she is supposed to.
Brittney said it best: All jobs are respectively hard, just in different aspects.
I couldn’t agree anymore. With that in mind, wait staff shouldn’t be complaining about their job being so difficult, whilst the rest of the job market also consists of difficult jobs that pay minimum wage. A job is a job, that is it. So why complain abou the difficulty? Work, don’t complain. In the wait staff’s case, if you get a tip. Great. If not, you’ve still got your base pay.
Buddy i had made it a VERY clear point that I agree that you cant just hide behind the flag and veteran status to justify tipping in this argument. You always seems to miss my points because I USUALY agree with you haha. I very much agree that all redlegs are American vet bullshit. MY point is that I too am a vet and I think that it has no bearing in this debate at all and it’s just cheap and inane to play the vet card.
My only point was this guy said something like “You must be proud of yourself killing innocent woman and children in Iraq and Afghanistan. What am American hero you are”! THAT had nothing to do with tipping and was just an attack on servicemen. For example I joined post 9/11 because, at the time like most of us, I thought it was the right thing to do back in 03. I didnt join to slaughter the innocent (I seriously doubt redleg did either) and anybody who thinks that’s what we do needs to seriously grow up. it’s a DISGUSTING accusation.
Back to tipping though I still agree that the whole tipping “scheme” is complete BS and I don’t frown upon anybody who doesn’t tip… I just tip out of personal prefernce because I see it as a service charge and I don’t want to hurt anybody. It’s 100% voluntary which means that I don’t think you guys are wrong are bad. I just look at it as being kind to others. You probaly do your share of kindness in different ways i’m sure.
But again… I AGREE BUDDY! So chill out haha.
In reply to Ryan
I never wrapped my argument in the flag– I merely pointed out data points to solidify my opinion. I do agree it has nothing to do if you tip or not…but my service has made me grateful for many of the small things I see in my life– and that includes tipping. CS likes to exaggerate and conflate his arguments– but I have never said anyone was wrong for not tipping– I said I consider it wrong. Big difference. And thank you for your service.
In reply to Ryan
Ryan–thanks for your service to all of us. I’ll keep this out of the discussion. I was trying to make a point taht the social ills of the wait staff in question do not concern me as a consumer (the humanistic side is different), however I won’t cheapen the argument and play the vet card.
Thanks again and wish you the best. RedLeg, thank you too for your service. I heavily disagree with you, but can’t argue your valor in serving.
In reply to Common Sense
CS
Servicemen are not victims. They are volunteers and as human as anyone else. The 9/11 for Truth guy above likes to lump us into boxes– you don’t need to pity us and do the same. Respect where respect is given. You made your life choices, I and other veterans made ours . I have been to Walter Reed to see our wounded and I will tell you, pity isn’t what they need. Respect is.
I don’t care is you agree or disagree with me. Just don’t try to foist your solutions on everyone else, which you keep trying to do. Because tipping is working for nearly everyone else. Just not you and bhag. I do not have police standing at every restaurant enforcing a mythical 20% tip. It is a social custom which someone has inscribed at 20% as the right thing to do. It is not mandatory. If you don’t like it, don’t do it– but you are also taking advantage of the lowest part of a system who has to serve you like any other customer. Not the sign of a philanthropist. And so I will label you and others like you as cheapskates. Wear it like a badge of honor for all I care.
In reply to redleg
“It is a social custom which someone has inscribed at 20% as the right thing to do.”
In itself a reason to stop doing it.
In reply to redleg
agreed–the quote above in itself is a reason to stop it in the first place.
In reply to redleg
I should mention the “nearly everyone else” quote. Using that mentality, you could argue that our current agri-business is working for “nearly” everyone else. Yes, “nearly” everyone else essentially means 30% of the world’s population is NOT hungry.
“Nearly” everyone else doesn’t cut it. A system needs to work for EVERYONE else. Why is it that the restaurant industry took a HUGE nose dive during the recession, yet refuses to innovate or change its ways? Everyone argues about food prices being marked up. Lets do some math.
You have a dish and it costs $10. The tip that is expected is 15%. If service is NOW included in the price of the burger, the burger will only increase 15%, right? Meaning $1.50? Now the burger went from $10 to $11.50. Big deal.
Also, food prices themselves are already marked up. Trust me, I worked in food manufacturing and EVERY restaurant uses food that is probably worth 70-80% what the actual dish costs in the restaurant, and not just chain restaurants.
So it truly is a sham on the employees and the employers side. The employee i don’t blame too much simply because everyone has the right to make more money regardless. It is more the employers’ fault since they are the one’s enforcing a work culture that guilts its OWN consumers into paying a labor cost at a fixed percentage, even though this labor “cost” is voluntary and is already covered by state law in the first place.
Do I believe EVERYONE should have a fair wage (ie statist)? Absolutely not. It would be nice, however, if states did not discriminate between tipped and non-tipped employees for the employees sake, however it does not concern me. What concerns me is my food.
In reply to Common Sense
Negative– a system does not have to work for everyone. That’s communism. A system needs to work acceptably well for a majority. You will never make everyone happy. You will never make everyone satisfied. Life isn’t fair, cupcake. You don’t tip– so what? If you pay for the meal, OK– you don’t have a say in what that profit margin should be. Tipping increases the profit margin in an already low profit margin industry. Food cost is only one of those factors.
That helps restaurants survive– but not all restaurants. It is a fact of life in America today and more people tip than do not. The industry didn’t change because lousy restaurants went out of business and were either not replaced or replaced with ones that could compete– thats the free market. In a recession people tend to spend less because they fear uncertainty– but most people, when they do go out, tend to tip. It may not be fair in your mind– but it is life. You keep railing on minimum wage and how you shouldn’t have to tip– but you don’t go against the government that imposed those regulations and said fair wage. Your talk smacks of socialism rather than libertarianism. If a server can earn a tip– why not– if you don’t tip it costs you nothing– what is the harm of that? You want your freedom but hypocritically you don’t want me to have my freedom. That’s a statist.
In reply to redleg
You’re right redleg–if a server can earn a tip, why not? at the same time, if I don’t tip, why not? How am I arguing a statist argument? I don’t believe EVERYONE should have the same wages, that is communism. I don’t believe in minimum wage, but let me put this in caps. IF MINIMUM WAGE EXISTS, WHY ARE WAIT STAFF DISCRIMINATED AGAINST WHILE OTHERS RECEIVE $8/HOUR IN MOST STATES? I hope you read that nicely redleg.
Not everyone will be happy, this is guranteed. But you also cannot have a lawful system that makes “nearly” everyone happy either. IE you cannot have a system where 51% of the people are fully happy while 49% of the people are fully dissatisfied. This is how things break down (we’re seeing this today for example). COmpromise should be made.
With this in mind, I still wont tip.
The restaurant industry should change, however to survive. Tipping could be ONE FACTOR. Of course the bigger factor would be serving better food, but that’s a topic for another discussion.
Why are you not fully reading my posts?
As I said, call me what you may redleg, but I still won’t tip. I also want to convey to people hwo sheepishly tipping does not help anything. Think about it, Bhagwad himself stated that no matter how the service was, most people tend to tip anyway.
Let me ask you something. In most countries, if a waiter/tress hands out poor service to h/her customers, h/she will get reprimanded by her boss if the customer complains. In the United States, nine times out of ten, the role is reversed and the boss essentially has the employee’s “back” in such a case.
Why can’t I have a system where the wait staff is working for me hand and foot? That is the only TRUE way I’d give a tip and why not?
Again, tipping is UP TO ME. It is voluntary. So if I tip 5%, it is up to me. If I tip 0%, same thing. I tend to tip a fixed $3 everywhere I go. Whether it is a $10 meal or a $50 meal.
In reply to Common Sense
most states do not have a guaranteed minimum wage law for waitstaff. It’s that tricky 10th Amendment. Just your socialist paradise ones have jiggered the system. I point you to the above that is your wish to change society– tipping is but a symptom of the disease. I disagree strenuously with your premise but you won’t attack your problem by hitting the symptoms. You have to attack the root cause. And you are not. You still don’t have to tip. You have no right telling me I have to also not tip because you wish to feel better about your inherent cheapness. The restaurant business seems to be doing just fine as it is. Plenty of restaurants around. Successful ones stay in business. Failed ones die off. But they are still around. That’s not a dying industry or one that is threatened. If a burger stand wants to serve crappy burgers, they have a right to do exactly that but should not be surprised when no one buys them except out of desperation. And that’s with your crappy tip. If this was a values thing for you, you would not tip at all, but it isn’t– why is that?
and to be fair I completely read your posts. I assume you fail to read mine when you respond by simply ignore my points or attacking with hyperbole. You consistently do this but it is common with frustrated statists. Tipping IS voluntary CS. So is me thinking you’re a cheapskate. Stop trying to to tell others what to do to rationalize your behavior. Own it. It isn’t killing anyone, abusing anyone or holding anyone in subjugation– it’s a tip. It is not the great moral crusade of the 21st century. And you are in the minority in the United States.
In reply to redleg
The thing is Redleg is that CS doesn’t read the posts from you me or anybody else but about 10% at best. That’s why his arguments are continuously redundant and even on points that i agree with him on, he doesn’t even notice that which I find strange.
Tipping is NOT a socialist practice. It seems more capitalist than anything considering capitalism is VOLUNTARY, just like tipping. While I don’t agree with the tipping system at all, I still do it because that’s the way we do things. The system may not be right but I’m not going to be an A-Hole and hold back on a few bucks just to prove a point either.
And Redleg thank you as well for defending this h0me of ours. Don’t pay any mind to people that never had the heart (or the nerve) to do what you do.
In reply to redleg
Well actually that part isn’t really true. The US Department of Labor even clearly states it on their website that if the server doesn’t make enough in tips, the employer MUST make up the difference. This is a Federal Law. Even if the server wage is 2.50 or something like that, they must get minimum regardless. Even all the serves on this post have admitted that much. Federal minimum wage is gurenteed and it’s not optional by state.
Will the employer keep servers that don’t make enough in tips though? Well that’s a different story.
In reply to Common Sense
And I will disagree with your presumption that the employer has the servers backs if they do wrong OR a customer complains. In my experience management is usually on the customers side, at least in public. Your attitude/bias might be showing again. That has almost never happened to me, or to anyone I have known. And the same is true for service overseas– in Germany and all the other places I ate out on the economy.
I’m a baristas working for minimum wage. Fortunately, I live in a state with a high minimum wage. Not all my customers tip me. I’m fine with that, since I don’t count on tips for the majority of my income. What bothers me is the assumption that the only reason I’m friendly is to get a tip. It’s ridiculous. I work as a baristas because I like people, and I get free coffee. I assume that many servera, couldn’t do their job if they didn’t enjoy interpersonal interactions. Accusing them of only wanting your money is unfair to them.
Also, many people working for minimum wage cannot find anything better. Therefore telling them to quit their jobs is not a viable solution. It is your right not to tip them, but having a little more compassion and understanding of their situation would go hurt.
In reply to Rebecca
Sorry for the typos. My cell phone is hard to type on.
In reply to Rebecca
Rebecca–Also, many people working for minimum wage cannot find anything better.
This sentence in itself is exactly why minimum wage should be abolished in the first place. The government is essentially telling its citizens “if you don’t find a job that pays $8/hour, you are not allowed to work.” That in itself is a burden.
As for not tipping, compassion has no place in business transactions. So why should I feel compassionate in the first place. You mentioned you own a cell phone, right based on your second comment? If you used compassion, you would not purchase your cell phone since it was most likely manufactured in China by laborers making extremely low wages living in the company’s housing units that are housed alongside with animals as well. What about then?
The compassion argument is flawed when arguing for a tip. It is hypocritical that we have to show you compassion, while laborers in China and India are getting paid $1 a day so Westerners can have cheap clothes and electronics.