It never fails to shock me how a tip is demanded in the US. People simply refuse to listen to reason when we (yes, there are others!) tell them that leaving a tip isn’t necessary. Well, I’m hoping for too much here, but if you’re a waiter, here are 5 reasons why I will try my best not to give any money to you and why the reasons for tipping are crappy.
1. You act as if you’re my best friend
Just leave me alone ok? I don’t want to bloody chit chat with you. I want food. FOOD! Get it? It’s a restaurant. I go there to eat. I go because I want either Italian food, Chinese Food or something else which I can’t get in a McDonald’s. So I come to a restaurant to fulfill my cravings for it. I will pay for what I value – food. Not you.
Christ, you offend me – kneeling down next to my table, pretending to like me and chatting as if you’re my best friend when it’s obvious that all you’re after is the tip! I’m not a bloody money bag you know. I will pay the bill which includes the cost of the food, the environment and the salaries of the people involved – nothing more.
The only way to get money out of me that I don’t have to legally pay is by prying it out of my cold dead hands…
Bottom line: I don’t want to know your name, or interact with you for any longer than I have to in order to place my order. As far as I’m concerned, you’re the equivalent of a conveyor belt that brings me my food and a computer into which I input my order. Of course, I won’t be rude. But don’t expect me to interact with you any more than I would with some stranger.
Image Credit: cafemama
2. You don’t get paid enough
And this is my problem how exactly? It’s astonishing that customers are expected to make up for your employer’s cheapness in not paying you a decent wage. Please include the full cost in everyone’s bill thank you very much. I’ll pay it because I have to and the charge is there for me to see.
What’s really funny here is that no one seems to criticize the employers! All criticism is reserved for non tipping customers instead of the owners of the restaurant for not paying a decent wage. Wtf! Could it possibly be because you guys know you can make much more by tips and under report your income to the IRS?
3. You’ll spit in my food if I don’t tip you?
And I’ll shoot your kid if you don’t give me a million dollars. Seriously, am I even hearing this right? You’re actually using the threat of blackmail to make me pay you? Well as long as you’re openly claiming to be a criminal it’s all right I guess.
Fortunately that’s why I prefer buffets. Listen apart from it being illegal, this shows your poor integrity. But if you spit in someone’s food because they didn’t give you money you didn’t earn, then you’re a loser and deserve to be a waiter for the rest of your life.
4. Bringing me my food isn’t worthy of being paid extra
Did you cook it? Did you invent it? No. You picked it up and brought it to me. While it might not be easy, there are plenty of jobs which are much worse – shop floor workers for example. And I’ve been a shop floor manager, so I know. Face it – compared to other jobs, being a waiter is unskilled. You get paid what the market will think your services are worth. You don’t deserve more for your work over and above what your employer should pay you.
5. Money doesn’t grow on trees
I expect you to be grateful and pray for me at night if I tip you 10%. Be happy I gave you anything at all. I worked for the money in my wallet and by giving you some I didn’t have to, I’m doing you a favor. Learn to remember that when people give you something they don’t need to, it’s a favor. You don’t complain that they didn’t give you more!
By the way, the same thing above applies to all professions that demand tips including those on cruise liners.
So now that you understand why I won’t give you money you don’t deserve, stop with the “oh how could you?” attitude. I can. And I will.
Update: Here’s a rebuttal of the many silly justifications for tipping that people have given in the comments section.
CS
you damage your argument again with your moral equivalence. If the people in India or China wanted to reverse the proposition history has given them plenty of opportunity to do so. That has nothing to do with tipping as we have been discussing. A tip is not compassion. It is a gratuity for good work or service and IS voluntary. And it is part of equation when restaurants figure out how to survive in the economy and part of their business model– right or wrong. Minimum wage is wrong, but it is also law. The exception for waitstaff is also law.
In reply to redleg
Anything you do not legally have to pay is compassion.
A tip very much falls under the category of “charity”.
In reply to bhagwad
Now THAT is one of the most bogus things I have heard out of all these posts. “If it’s not the law it’s compassion”? So you’re saying that if some government body doesn’t lay down the rule that everything else must be a “gimme”? Sorry but that’s ridiculously stretched out. Forget tipping, I mean the whole idea behind that in general.
But even if we are talking about tipping, what is the difference if the gratuity is on your bill or not? It’s still the same service charge any way you put it. You’re just given the option to refuse to pay that’s all. Maybe every owner or manager doesn’t need to tell you before you walk in that “there is a service charge of 15% but it’s at your discretion” because they assume you get it.
In reply to Ryan
Certainly. If a person hands over money that they don’t have to, then that person is doing the other a favor. “Charity” may not be a nice word, but it’s definitely a favor/generosity or whatever. And none of those can be expected or demanded.
In reply to bhagwad
It is a gratuity not charity. If you have no gratitude– do not tip. What you are trying to do is change my behavior because you are cheap. That dog don’t hunt. It is also how restaurants survive and very much a part of the American restaurant society. Sorry.
In reply to redleg
I’m trying to change your behavior? How is that even possible?
What are you so paranoid over? No one is going to force you to do anything you don’t want :D. So relax.
In reply to bhagwad
Your rationalizations point to you thinking the entire system should change and no one should tip, and CS’s statist rantings on minimum wage in a similar vein. Do as you please but don’t tell me what to do– I am perfectly OK you living your frugal little life as you please– grant me the same courtesy. You don’t like the American restaurant system– convince them to change it. Good luck with that. Till then your point is moot and you look like a cheap bastard to about 85% of Americans. If you don’t care about that, then we can agree. Our opinion should mean nothing to you if you think we’re wrong. But mewling about contracts like tipping is the greatest social crime of the 21st century is small of you.
In reply to redleg
Aint that the truth
In reply to redleg
RL–true, min wage is WRONG and is the law while the exemption for wait staff is also the law. Both are wrong. One is wrong since minimum wage simply doesn’t work. The other is wrong because a certain part of the workforce is being discriminated against. The fact that many restaurants use a VOLUNTARY service charge to balance out their employees’ pay is a bit silly. It is certainly a system that needs to be changed. It doesn’t directly affect me simply because I don’t work in that particular industry.
Ryan, your example, a verbal agreement can be fought AGAINST in court. A written contract is necessary. So if you and I shook hands and you ended up not paying me, sure it is wrong, however the law would be on your side simply because there is no thorough proof of the contract at hand. It would have to be notarized or you at least need some sort of witness to the contract at hand. This is why you always should have something on paper simply as proof.
Tipping is PURELY a compassionate system. It is ENTIRELY humanistic, however SHOULD NOT be demanded. How can you DEMAND compassion? That is the part of the system that requires fixing. I have no problem with wait staff only making $2.13, however if they truly want things changed, simply give wait staff higher wages (again, the employer has every right to pay their employees higher wages) and let the customers tip whatever they want–0%, 10%, 15%, 5%, 3% etc.
In reply to Common Sense
Dude WHATEVER. There’s more to life than the rule of law and being able to “fight something in court”. There is such thing as morality and keeping your word. If you don’t see that then I can’t help you.
In reply to Ryan
I’m curious to see how not tipping is “not keeping your word”.
What word are you referring to? And to prove morality you need to explain the moral issue at hand. You can’t just wave your hand and claim a moral victory without showing it.
In reply to bhagwad
Point being is that I agree with 90% about tipping in general and I’ve mentioned that time and time again.
But when the argument stretches outside of tipping and becomes things Like “if you can’t fight it in court then it’s a compassion thing” then it’s going too far.
As far as the tipping aspect I never disagreed with you on that.
In reply to Ryan
That’s a different issue.
Interestingly what examples can you give of situations that are not agreements or not legally binding that is still not considered charity?
All the examples I think of fall into the generosity/charity category. Maybe there are some I haven’t thought of yet.
In reply to bhagwad
Then I’m reading too deply then? Maybe i’m nit-picking on “exactness” of wording but i’m not sure. I interpret things the way they are written.
Bu there are many examples (not tipping) where it’s not compassion. Just as a basic example, if I give you my “Internet Router” and say you can pay me back later “whenever you get the money”, I don’t consider that charity when you decide to pay it back. There is no law saying you have to but it’s certainly not compassion.
But like I said maybe I was reading too deeply into your meaning.
In reply to Ryan
No it’s certainly not charity. But it is an agreement.
I’m talking about situations that are not agreements and not legally covered. To me, those actions seem to be charity.
In reply to bhagwad
Well then we agree. Took your statement very literally, as I feel I should have. But as far as what you just said then I agree mostly.
My oppinion thiough is that the owner of the restaurant is assuiming you agree to tip based on the way the labor laws are written and general American custom… I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but I can understand that people don’t see it as a charity. I see it as there is a service charge, unwritten, based on our word, that you can disagree with an opt of.
I guess my point is that there IS a service charge. It’s just not on the bill. But I understand if you feel that it’s not a service charge. I just don’t feel that everything needs to be in writing to be legitimate.
But again I don’t agree at all with the sytem. But I do agree with the “it’s my house my rules” policy. If I come to your home you may expect me to clean my own mess, or maybe take off my shoes, or whatever just as an example. I don’t NEED to do it of course but if I want to respect your home I will. It’s just a different thought.
In reply to bhagwad
see Ryan, your arguments are based on compassion and an “understanding.” However, when you are involved in business transactions at such a high level as say a restaurant, which is essentially similar to retail in that they are “selling” you food, how can you use such “understandings?” It doesn’t work at that level. If I’m expending such a large amount of cash, I would require some sort of written statement. It wouldn’t be required, per se, however I would worry about losing that amount of money or my services not being rendered.
OBviously, if it is someone I know, then yes, I’m am “charitably” allowing you to use my wifi router and pay me later. however, at the restaurant level, it is a whole different ball game.
In reply to Common Sense
You really are a statist CS. What business of it of yours what others should tip when you think it is so immoral and onerous that the entire system of society must be changed? It costs you nothing…but you say you still tip. That’s a cheap man rationalizing his behavior as right by forcing others to adapt a similar custom. That’s fascism or statism at its best. Who says you know what is best for the rest of us?
In reply to Common Sense
CS I live in the real world. Not your fantasy one. We may both agree that the minimum wage is wrong but what are you doing to abolish the system? That’s the ground we tread– tipping is a symptom not the disease if your premise is correct. I tend to disagree with you though. But just look at your lovely state of Kalifornia. Fixing the whole tipping “problem” there will not cure the whole host of problems you have there. In fact it wouldn’t do a danged thing about any of them.
I have devoted my life to addressing the wrongs I see in life, and tipping isn’t among those ills. I am grateful for the society I have because I am lucky enough to be able to live here. Most of the world is not so lucky. So address your efforts where they will correct those flaws but just don’t tell me what I have to do to for my own good. You are not the better of me or my society. You are my equal and you should never forget it. As C.S. Lewis said: “Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
Once you understand that you have found the root of my problem with your arguments. You think you know better than the rest of us. The Constitution says you don’t. If you see a problem, work for change. Real Change. Tipping doesn’t even make the top 10,000 of problems this world has, if it is even a problem.
In reply to redleg
you are right redleg, tipping isn’t nearly a big problem out there. I just REALLY don’t like it and want to see it abolished and why not? This thread is about tipping–not hunger, not access to clean water but tipping and therefore I will discuss the ills of tipping, so lets keep it at that.
YOU don’t consider tipping a problem, but I DO. So what????
BTW Kalifornia might have its problems, but i’ll take living here over Oklahoma, NY or anywhere else. I’d rather be living in 70 degree winters and living in a big city that has a pretty low crime rate, lol.
You and I both know that’s a line of crap. So, for example, if you and I both shook hands and made an agreement that I would pay you money for X service that you would provide, and the I refused because “there is no law saying I need to honor our agreement” that’s ok? Or rather if I did in fact pay you, based on our agreement, that I’m doing you a favor?
If you and I were neighbors and we had an agreement that you would pay me 50$ to fix your car… Your payment is a favor because the law doesn’t demand you to honor your agreement with me? And if you DID pay it’s out of compassion because you’re not actually legally required to pay for our “handshake agreement”? That doesn’t sound a little strecthed to you?
I’m sorry but the “law” isn’t the “cure all end all” of lifes morals and codes.
In reply to Ryan
“You and I both know that’s a line of crap.”
I’m sorry but you can’t speak for me. You may think it’s a line of crap but what would make you think that I think the same? In fact, it’s kind of implying that I said it even if I think it’s crap. Which makes me…what?
Just to clarify, I don’t think it’s crap.
In law, certain implicit agreements are recognized. For example I don’t sign a contract that I’m going to pay the bill at a restaurant. But it still makes me legally obligated to make a payment. It’s a part of contract law.
As an example of how some countries handle this, here’s the UK Theft Act of 1978: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/31/section/3
Tips on the other hand are not covered by contract law in any form whatsoever.
Now you have a case provided there’s an explicit agreement between two neighbors. If you came to my house and fixed my car without me asking you, there’s no reason whatsoever for me to pay you $50.
Remember that a waiter has to serve me regardless of whether I tip or not. There’s no question of “agreement” here. They have an obligation to serve me because they are employees of a restaurant. I don’t need to make any arrangement with them either implicit or explicit.
So barring explicit agreements (of which there aren’t many) unless a person is legally obligated to part with their money, said parting is generosity/charity and I very much think of it in those terms.
In reply to bhagwad
Ryan, Bhagwad makes an absolutely true argument, particularly with the car argument. Wait staff have to serve you regardless. The fact that there is no law against not tipping still requires them to serve you. What wait staff could easily do is ask “will you tip me 15%? My restaurant REQUIRES it” and have the customer sign this agreement before hand (or after the fact in the form of an auto-grat). The law would always be on the payer’s side.
You fixing my car without me asking is a good example on Bhagwad’s end.
In reply to bhagwad
First of all dude your EXACT STATEMENT was that “If it’s not the law then it’s compassion”. Don’t try and steer away from that. MY example was an example that wasn’t the law but I’m fairly sure you’d agree isn’t compassion. But like you said I can’t speak for you. In America we use “figure of speech” and that was a form of it by saying “you and i both know that’s a line of crap. It’s a direct implication that your blowing it out of propotion. Sorry for not clarifying that I guess.
And getting coy isn’t going to validate your statements. You used to make valid points until you started going in this different direction all the sudden.
I was adressing your EXACT wording. You said that anything that isn’t LAW is compassion. A direct agreement between neighbors is not law. Should you still pay?
In reply to Ryan
“Getting coy”. I got coy? What are you talking about?
Can we please stick to tipping?
“I was adressing your EXACT wording. You said that anything that isn’t LAW is compassion. A direct agreement between neighbors is not law. Should you still pay?”
I’m changing it to include explicit agreements.
So anything that isn’t law or part of an agreement is charity and compassion. Is that better?
For future reference, I don’t “blow things out of proportion”. If I make an analogy I mean it exactly the way it reads. You can try and convince me otherwise and I may or may not be convinced. But when I make a statement, don’t assume by thinking I’m blowing it out of proportion.
In reply to bhagwad
The word “anything” in itself refers to things other than tipping.
In reply to Ryan
I’m sorry I didn’t understand that.
My point is simple. Tipping is neither legally required nor is it an agreement. It is charity/generosity and no one should expect it. Ever.
If charity is received, the receiver should be grateful no matter how small it is. Not complain that they didn’t get more. Or didn’t get anything for that matter.
In reply to bhagwad
It is a fine line. Is tipping charity? I wouldn’t consider it so. It is more of a “thank you, here’s a buck boy.” However, it isn’t required by law and completely under the consumers’ discretion. It isn’t agreed either, otherwise explicit statements at the restaurants would have been made. Even a poster on the side of the restaurant says that “we require 15% tips,” the fact that you sat down means you agree to the terms of the restaurant. THat is all that is needed.
TIpping is voluntary. This means I can tip whatever I please. Why would anyone complain about geting a “low tip” if tips themselves are supposed to be voluntary and “compassionate” as even redleg agrees it is?
In reply to Common Sense
CS I think we all get it. You tip as you please. You clearly don’t read the posts most of us write and make the same redundant argument. You have, in the past, actually argued with people that have agreed with you 100%… Myself included.
If you’re going to respond, you should consider actually reading what you’re responding to. You’d be amazed that other people have valuable oppinions too.
In reply to Ryan
but doesn’t every argument hear boil down to it? You are arguing with BHG that tipping is not “charity” per se, but more of a “service charge.” I mean it is all symantics, isn’t it? Now to your wifi agreement, people that know each otehr “clearly” make an agreement that person A can use the wifi as long s person B pays $15. Person B doesn’t have anything written and is risking not receiving his $15, but trusts the person anyways. Person B receives the $15. This cannot be compared to tipping.
People at large scale restaurants (say Darden’s) should NOT have such explicit expectations as a 15% tip due to the wage regulations as you mentioned simply because they are in a whole other arena in terms of commerce. If anything, it is like me going to Burger King, telling the cashier I don’t have money, I’ll pay you back later kind of agreement. It doesn’t work at such large end establishments.
I agree with Bhagwad–My point is simple. Tipping is neither legally required nor is it an agreement. It is charity/generosity and no one should expect it. Ever.
Would I call it charity personally? no not really, but I see where Bhagwad is coming from. It is a voluntary charge and should be consider as thus.
If something isn’t law, then what is it? An act of kindness? Perhaps. Humanism? Probably.
How could you define something that is not necessarily apart of the law? For example, an employer pays his staff more than other restaurants and forbids tipping. What is that considered? That in itself is a discussion for another thread, lol.
In reply to Common Sense
“Why would anyone complain about geting a “low tip” if tips themselves are supposed to be voluntary and “compassionate””
While this blog post and its following comments have certainly made me realize that tipping is indeed voluntary and I ought to be grateful for each and every one I receive..
It still frosts my cookies when I’ve gone above and beyond for a customer to ensure that they have a great time OR when the customer has run me absolutely ragged with incessant needs, questions, attitude, etc and then they leave me a tip that is way less than the standard.
That’s when I complain about a low tip. Just to answer your question, although I know it was more rhetorical than anything. :P
In reply to Valerie
No i’m glad you answered the question, Valerie. I understand that all people get frustrated when they are overworked, however you have to understand that not all things are heavenly when you work. There will be times of stress and frustration, including receiving a low tip. How is this, then, different then any other job? Paramedics have stress all the time and occasionally deal with some pretty bad people, yet they deal. So what do I respond to your answer to my question–deal with it. you chose the job and now face the gamble of a tip based position. I’m sorry to sound harsh, but that is the reality.
God grant me the serenity to changes the things I can and accept the things I cannot. If you won’t address the underlying issues, tipping won’t change. You may live where you choose. I choose Tennessee, simply because if I lived in your socialist paradise about 75% of my weapons would be illegal and I would be a de-facto felon for committing absolutely no crime, and I would be taxed within an inch of my life simply for the privilege of living there. Your choice, and mine as well. And you have low crime for now. I have the ability to enforce low crime in my own neighborhood– you do not.
In reply to redleg
The underlying issue is that people are sheepishly following a status quo that they believe is American (that actually came from Napoleonic Europe). Perhaps people should develop a mind of their own and look where their money is going, that is all.
Thank you redleg for insulting my home. I appreciate it. It feels so good when people insult my home and not stick to the topic at hand. “Socialist paradise?” You do know Ronal Reagan was from California as was Nixon, right? David Dreier, the representative that reps my area, is one of the most prestigious republicans in the House, yet you insult california?
Thank you, I appreciate it.
BTW, God PERSONALLY gave you those powers? What are you the second coming of Christ now?
Stick to tipping. The issue at hand is just sheep following a status quo. It all boils down to what is being told by wait staff and what is really occurring. Obviously, wait staff want your money. Nothing wrong with that but be reasonable when giving it. Wait staff will ask ou 15%. Of course they will because no human being can refuse more money, so be reasonable. Give out what you want. That is it.
In reply to Common Sense
The Constitution enumerates god-given rights. Yes, god did give us those rights and only we can give them away. I can’t change that fact and neither can you. And you Kalifornians (even your big government Republicans from that state) have destroyed that great state from which Reagan proudly represented. With all the riches that Kalifornia has, your socialists have killed the golden goose in +/- 40 years. Congrats. That is a reputation to proud of– most assuredly.
And you rail about the rest of us being sheep? As a libertarian you shouldn’t care, but as a fascist you want your freedom but deny it to others because we’re not smart enough to manage our affairs ourselves. If I want to tip I will, not because the all-powerful waiters cabal has brainwashed me into doing it.
In reply to redleg
I think you’re just a teeny bit paranoid.
No one is coming after you and going to force you to not tip. I don’t think that’s been mentioned by anyone anywhere in this comment section. Yet you seem to rail against an enemy who in your imagination is coming to force you to do something you don’t want to do.
How is that even possible?
In reply to bhagwad
No, CS is simply telling me what I have to do and if I do not I am a sheep. That is wrong on the face of it and against all of his supposedly libertarian instincts. You want the system to change– go out and change it. Until then me and the approx 85% of Americans will continue the tipping system. Stop trying to tell me what to do.
In reply to redleg
What do you mean “have to do”? Is he threatening you? Is he saying he’ll call the cops? What? How can anyone tell you what you “have” to do? It’s absurd.
At the most he’s threatening to call you a sheep. Big deal. But that’s very far from claiming that he’s “forcing” you to tip.
No is forcing anyone to do anything. It’s a free country and we all know that. No need to get paranoid about your rights being taken away.
In reply to redleg
aren’t your posts also implying that I “have to” Tip redleg? They seem rather strong and almost forceful. I’m not forcing you to do anything. I am saying, however, not to follow a certain culture sheepishly.
I never told you that you HAVE TO NOT TIP.
OK lets clearly place my sentiments below:
I, common sense, officially state that I have not told RedLeg that he HAS to not tip. I am only stating that those that tip and insist that others are cheap doing so are following a cultural norm sheepishly rather than using their mental capacities to think otherwise.
OK, clearly put, lol. I hope so.
YOu wanna tip? Fine go ahead, but it is a sheepish system that doesn’t work.
you can bring ALL the Kalifornia stuff or the statist stuff or mention the service as much as you want. You go ahead, follow the sheep and tip. I will think on my own and not tip.
As I mentioned, redleg. You could have captured Saddam Hussein single handedly, but whatever you say, I still won’t tip :)
Ah you’re a soldier am I right? I assume that because honestly I don’t know some of the army acronyms. Being a Soldier is bad-ass though. I was an 0311 (grunt) with the 18’th out of Lejeune. A-Stan was after my time, we were over in Iraq during my time before Obama had us relocated there. Our soldiers were there though. You were there back in the gulf war era? You mentioned before you were in Berut so I’m guessing you’re older than me. I enlisted back in 2004 just out of high school.
The problem with CS is you’re arguing with a guy that disagrees with things he agrees on so dont waste your time. Bagwhad on the other hand does have solid arguments… The the problem though is he will only RESPOND with something he is comforatble arguing with. Any actual valid point you have he just ignores and doesn acknowledge. That’s why your arguments with him become redundant. There is no room for agreement or any kind of middle ground because he avoids the hard questions (or rather the sensible ones). And that’s why your arguments sometimes get reduntant too. You’re arguing with people that aren’t listening.
Baghwad I do however respect your point of veiw a lot though. What you do respond to is often valid, reasonable, and enlightening… The problem is that you wont respond to the harder questions… And I and MANY others have brought harder questions that you avoid. That’s why you wind up with arguments that don’t have a conclusion, and especially with redleg here. Don’t take any offense to that though. This IS the only blog I have ever cared to keep tabs on and with good reason :).
In reply to Ryan
Thing is with all the comments flowing in here, I can’t respond to every single one. Still, I’m happy to answer any hard points raised…to my knowledge I haven’t not responded to anything deliberately.
In reply to Ryan
If you feel that way Ryan, then I sincerely and truly apologize for any redundancy I may convey. What i feel is just reiterating my point may come off redundanly now that I see it. I am sorry and I hope I did not inconvenience you in any way, nor do I want you to feel as if I am nothing but a waste of time. We all have opinions, right? I suppose the opinions we agree with tend to comfort us more than the one’s we disagree with.
But like I said, tipping is not quite charity, nor is it quite a service charge. Because tipping is so ridiculously unique, all you can call it is “tipping.” IT isn’t a service charge since the employees are already paid, but i wouldn’t call it charity either. Maybe a “pat on the back” is more appropriate?
In reply to Ryan
Began my service in 86 in the National Guard as an Infantryman– missed Panama and Desert Storm (due to being in Korea at the time) and have been an artilleryman since 89– and was trained very well by 2 Marine artillerymen at the Army Artillery School since. I was in A-stan in 03 while you were invading Iraq and served with the USMC later in Iraq and A-stan while as a combat advisor. Never Beirut– unless you count monitoring the crisis in 06 from the Pentagon. Ground well tread.
I will have to agree to disagree on your opinion of both of those luminaries. They have evaded quite efficiently to responding to the harder questions.
But at the bottom it is simply either respecting the custom of tipping or not. You are not a war criminal for not tipping.
Well this dick clearly has never worked in a restaurant, what a shit bag.
Discussion about tipped minimum wage, tips, fed minimum wage, etc…
http://youtu.be/I97y0NboLrk
In reply to Valerie
This is an excellent discussion that highlights the fact that the government should have standard wage rules for everyone. Tipping is the cancer that allows waiters to receive lower wages in the first place.
It’s not as if waiters get low wages that are made up for in tips. The reverse is true. Waiters receive tips so the government feels it’s ok to give them lower wages. Tipping needs to end first. Only then will the government realize that the wages need to be on par with everyone else.
She also points out the the restaurant industry is thriving in California – another reason to not fear regular wages for waiters. I’m all for that.
I’m only against the idea that people have to pay what they needn’t because waiters are not getting paid enough. They should be paid enough and that is where the battle has to be fought in the first place.
By the way the entire discussion ignored the rules saying that employers need to make up for no tips to at least meet the minimum wage.
In reply to bhagwad
I also noticed that they failed to mention the employer’s responsibility to ensure minimum wage. Which I think further proves my theory that this law is largely ignored.
In reply to Valerie
And so who deserves the brunt of recriminations and outrage? The employers. Not the customers.
In reply to bhagwad
I don’t think I ever implied that anyone be complacent with the employers. I still stand by my compassion argument, though. That being, as a consumer armed with all this knowledge you ought to tip atleast 10%. It’s something I would do. But again, this is a free country and you are free to disagree and also free to not give anything at all.
But using the ever popular cashier example. Lets say it was Home Depot cashiers who had been held down by a large and powerful lobby to ensure that their wage stay the same and that they are not entitled to sick days. Lets say they work for tips. They hope to earn money by smiling and being pleasant as they check your items. Some going as far as to help you lift heavy items. Pointing out that they’ve double bagged something so that it won’t break. If I went to Home Depot, knowing that these guys are working under these circumstances, I’d tip the cashier for bagging my things with care and being all around awesome.
If I didn’t want to tip, or if I couldn’t afford to tip.. Well, then i’d use the self checkout. This analogy might seem ridiculous and I probably opened up a whole other can of worms, but oh well.
In reply to Valerie
I thoroughly believe that minimum wage is unnecessary and should be abolished and personally have no issues with employers only paying their employees whatever wages, however, it is unfair that wait staff are technically discriminated against other workers by NOT being able to receive the same minimum wage as others. My solution? Just get rid of the minimum wage. This is much more difficult, but if done, makes things a lot easier. Nobody is being discriminated against in terms of their wages. Tipping can be performed, but the “fixed” percentage would just kind of go away.
It is interesting that they mentioned California. The most amount of restaurants in terms of density is actually in California and on top of that, the city that has the most amount of restaurants in terms of geographical density would be Pasadena california. Plenty of restaurants their actually do not accept tips.
As Bhagwad said, the wait staff shouldn’t hate the CUSTOMERS, but should reserve their vitriol towards the EMPLOYER and the SYSTEM. They could easily change it. How about ALL wait staff one day not show up for work? Give the employers a message.
In reply to Common Sense
“Wait staff shouldn’t hate the CUSTOMERS, but should reserve their vitriol towards the EMPLOYER and the SYSTEM.”
I normally don’t hate customers.. Only when they run me around or act like my best friend and don’t tip/tip poorly. Other than that, I have no hatred for the “system”..it works well any other time.
If, say, waiting tables were to change to minimum wage across the country and tipping abolished, I would seek new employment. I’d rather scan items at the register, or answer phones for minimum wage. No way in hell i’d do what I do for minimum.
In reply to Valerie
with all of that in mind Valerie, I’d say read Jewels post. Minimum wage in the first place doesn’t work. You agreed to the job, so own up. If I knew that Home depot cashiers weren’t paid a certain wage, I’d look elsewhere for employment. If I were desperate, I’d work as a home depot cashier. If I didn’t make a certain wage, i’d just simply work, gain the experience, and get another job elsewhere.
People who don’t have proper restaurant etiquette shouldn’t be allowed to go to restaurants. You don’t want to tip your server? Go to fucking McDonalds. Your server is there to provide you with an experience as well as a meal. Your server is there to be attentive, hospitable and friendly. If all of that has been provided then a tip is the guest’s recognition of that service. I have been a server for 4 years and now help manage a busy San Diego restaurant. I feed my family based on the service I provide and therefore the tips I receive. It’s people like you, who restaurant industry people hate. Your sense of entitlement and cynicism towards the people who are smiling as they clear your plate makes me sick. I speak on behalf of all servers when I say a big “fuck you” drive throughs were designed for you, Prick. Go fuck yourself
In reply to SDserver
“It’s people like you, who restaurant industry people hate.”
Hunh, you think? Big surprise there! Why wouldn’t they hate someone who doesn’t give them money like everyone else?
I completely understand both the OP and all the people that work in the restaurant field. I have worked in both the restaurant industry as well as other service industries before going to College and getting my degree and the full time job that I have held for the past 10 years. I agree that it sucks that the wait staff is forced to almost put on a show to “earn” the basic minimum wage from tips, everyone should be paid basic minimum wage. That being said, why is it that only in the restaurant business do people feel that they can reduce service if they are paid minimum wage instead of having to rely on tips? Do you not take pride in your work either way? When I worked in any service job (hostess, waitress, customer service, and sales associate (non commission)) I took pride and did my best whether I was getting tips or not (I only received tips when working as a waitress btw). The response of alot of posters here is “well then dont go to the restaurant”….if everyone that didnt like or want to tip stopped eating out at restaurants, then there would be less need for the staff in the restaurant which would result in people losing their jobs…how does that solve anything??? I have never understood that logic of “if you dont like what we want, then dont come here”. I appreciate good service and tip accordingly, however when I was a teenager I remember leaving a 10% tip for a waitress because we were ignored most of the evening that we were there and she chased after us to tell us that we didnt leave “enough”. I asked her why? She said because she had to tip out the bartender…um we were 17, we were not ordering alcohol and we only had water………..and we left a 10% tip. Anyways my point is, no one is ever going to make either side understand the others, but to say dont eat at restaurants if you dont want to tip is a dangerous statement to make if you value have a job that is tip based, because as I said before, if people stop coming, there is no longer a need for you period….
In reply to Jewels
very cool post. Thank you :)
What you’re saying based on your responses is that servers are not paid a high enough wage and that you shouldn’t have to be responsible for mailing it up via a tip. But you’re clearly ignorant of the fact that the consumer ALWAYS is responsible for the wage of an employee of a company that they give their business to. You’re going to either pay a tip or a 15% mark-up on the food prices. BUT you’re better off tipping because at least that way you aren’t forced to pay for bad service, because there would be no incentive to provide good service. Are you sure you want to eat at restaurants where the servers all act like dmv employees?? Doubtful…
In reply to David K
“But you’re clearly ignorant of the fact that the consumer ALWAYS is responsible for the wage of an employee of a company that they give their business to. ”
Wait what? How do you figure that? The customer may enable the payment of wages with their money but the responsibility for payment is always the employer’s.
Also, many people do their jobs just fine without tips. It’s not as if service in other parts of the world where tips are not part of the equation have horrible waiters.
In reply to David K
If I was responsible for paying the wages of employees of a company, then I would be the one hiring those employees based on my requirements. I would set my own terms and conditions for salaries and job requirements. I would also have the authority to fire an employee at will for non-performance. Now that’s not happening is it? The restaurant owner does all that except for paying the wages. This is where it becomes a free for all to see which server can extract the most money out of sheepish customers in one day. Great system eh? No better way to screw over the customers.
Btw no incentive to provide good service without tips? Why do ignorant people keep bringing this argument up again and again? I work for a company too and I receive no tips. What’s my incentive to provide good service? Most professions don’t involve any tipping. Does that mean people doing such jobs provide shitty service all the time?
In reply to Andy
As per your comments about incentives, you get paid more than minimum wage I assume and you give good service to insure repeat business. Just as a server gives whatever level of service they do to expect whatever level of compensation they do. But the motivation argument usually comes up when people say that servers “already get paid a wage”. The response is that the wage is not enough to insure quality service. Just as paying a surgeon $15.00/hr wouldn’t garner much confidence in the outcomes of their work. But once we start talking about restaurants paying their servers more and just charging more for their food then that argument is dropped. If you get paid what you feel is a fair wage for your work you will work to provide job security. That’s what drives most people. Some people take pride in their work as a personal attitude but I assure you there are not many of those people happily living on minimum wage.
As per the “responsibility” statements, the wording may have been a little strong, but the concept still stands. Money from the consumer is used to pay employees. If a consumer agrees that an employee should be paid more for their work, then that money will most definitely come out of the pocket of the consumer.
In reply to David K
If servers feel $2.13/hr is not good enough for bringing food to the table, then they are free to seek other jobs. They can train and become a chef for higher and assured paygrade. People are always free to seek any job they like based on their qualifications. If you don’t qualify for any other job, then tough luck, you have to be satisfied with whatever your current job pays. That’s the way it is in this world.
Surgeons are not paid $15/hr because their jobs are considered much more valuable by society. Let society decide your job is worth. If you do a job that just about anybody can do and society deems fit to pay you $2/hr then so be it. There are also jobs that are worth $500/hr, if you have what it takes to do those jobs, nobody is stopping you.
“I assume and you give good service to insure repeat business”
I don’t do my job diligently to get repeat business. I work for a company, I couldn’t care less about repeat business as long as I get paid. My incentive is to keep my job. If I don’t do my job well, the company will find someone else to replace me.
You’re confusing generosity with common practice. Try hiring servers with the promise of minimum wage and no tips. And if your response is that the restaurant should just pay them more so you don’t have to make up the difference, you’re just going to have to make up the difference by paying a 15% mark-up on the food prices. It’s fun that the advocates of not tipping always say it’s not their responsibility to pay that persons wage, but it is always the responsibility of the end consumer to pay the wages of all business’ employees. That’s the way the system works. Non tippers live in a fantasy world of free lunches…if you want a free lunch, they’re just gonna charge you twice as much for dinner.
In reply to David K
“But it is always the responsibility of the end consumer to pay the wages of all business’ employees.”
This is hilarious. I mean…what?
I don’t think “responsibility” means what you think it means.
By all means charge me more for my meal. I don’t care. Just don’t expect me to part with money I don’t legally or morally have to.
In reply to bhagwad
If you want a system where tipping is not customary, then you will be in a system that charges you an average of 15% more for food. And your argument about legality is ridiculous. That’s like saying you hate getting whipped but if it were the law you’re completely ok with it. And morality and law are two different things and should be addressed separately. Legally you don’t have to tip, but morally, you are taking money out of someone’s pockets when you don’t tip because tips are always shared amongst most foh employees. So legally you don’t have to tip but I wouldn’t consider it moral to scam the system when there are customary rules.
Also, you obviously don’t understand that the buck is always passed onto the consumer, so the consumer pays the wages of all employees in the world. Even when you’re talking about government employees because you pay taxes and receive service (whether you’re satisfied with them or not sadly enough). When you stop patronizing a business they cannot pay employees so they are laid off.
Your logic does not hold up when you say you don’t want to have to pay the employees more out of your own pocket that it is the responsibility of the restaurant but then say you would be happy to pay more for your food if it meant that the employees would be paid more. Also, someone with your point of view I would imagine would rather have the choice to leave a tip so you would never be required to pay for service that you felt was not up to par. Keep in mind, the argument you’re making about other countries that don’t require tipping either pay their employees more and pass the cost onto you the consumer, or they are places where the cost (and quality in my opinion) of living are much lower. Even in most of those countries it is becoming more common place to tip. Places where tipping is not becoming at all common practice are ones that just pay employees more.
In reply to David K
Well its not all as black and white as you think. At the current 15% or 20% tipping rate servers earn way way more than national standard minimum wage. So you can be rest assured that if restaurants only have to pay them the $9/hr minimum wage, the increase in price of food will be a lot less than 15%.
Moreover, this will increase competition among restaurants because busy restaurants can afford to charge less for food and still make more profit. Restaurant owners will also be forced to hire only quality servers and only as many servers as they need.
In reply to David K
See I think the problem is the assumption that I care about the internal workings of a company/business. For example you say:
“But then say you would be happy to pay more for your food if it meant that the employees would be paid more.”
No, I don’t care if they’re paid more or less. I don’t care if they work for free. I don’t care if the restaurant is going at a loss. I care about the food, and I care about the bill. I don’t care if the restaurant added 15% to the bill and kept all the money to themselves. What the restaurant does with the money I give them is not my concern.
I look at the food…and I look at the bill. I eat the food. I pay the bill. As a customer that’s all I am required to do and all my obligations are fulfilled.
In reply to bhagwad
Exactly! Why should customers care about the internal workings of a business? How you manage your employees and your business is completely upto you. I don’t want anything to do with it and its most definitely is not my responsibility lol. As long as I get the service I want, that’s all that matters to me.
Just give me the bill and I’ll pay it but don’t expect any free handouts. Charge whatever you like. You can very well put a 50% markup on your food items to cover your employee salaries. I will just do what any sensible customer does and decide for myself which restaurant meets my quality and price standards and go there next time. If you can remain profitable by putting a 15% or 50% or X% markup on food prices, then good for you.
In reply to Andy
Absolutely right you guys!!! The social ills of the employee mean nothing to me as a consumer.
David, I’ll ask this. Look at standard tipping by decade:
70s–spare change
80s–10%
90s–15%
2000s-20%
2010s (in big cities)–25%
WHy is it that the tip percentage is INCREASING? How is this possible if the food prices themselves are being adjusted at an inflationary rate? For example a burger in the 70s cost maybe $2 while today it costs $10. Why should I have to tip more in terms of percentage? Has the service changed from the 70s to today?
This is why markets should dictate wage (ie no minimum wage). If you, an employer, will pay a certain wage and nobody is willing to work for you, obviously you better increase your wages given to employees.
In reply to Common Sense
Thanks for the response Common Sense. I can definitely see what you’re getting at with those points. But I don’t want to delve into what I think about them before I address them directly. As per the expected tip percentages over time, that’s not entirely accurate. I have seen personally several references to proper tipping etiquette from as far back as the 20s that says 10% and the 50s stating 10-20% depending on the service provided (not only including food service industry). But, just as now, if you ask say a group of ten people from different demographics and you’ll get ten different answers. As per the 25% in big cities, I have served and bartended in Chicago NY and for the past 5 years LA on the westside and aside from the higher end fine dining restaurants I have never heard a consensus of 25% as standard, although I’d love for you to pass that around.
As per your point about increased percentages along with the inflation of food costs there are two points I would like to respond with. One is that restaurant menu prices do change with inflation but it’s not always a precise 1 to 1 ratio. Over the last two years for example the national restaurant association has made some poor assumptions combined with a general lack of motivation to raise prices in order to remain competitive with store prices in order to make dining out more appealing to consumers in the down economy. But now the economy is slowly coming back combined with droughts so restaurants are under charging for food. Sorry for the long winded response but editing via a phone would just take too long. Secondly and more to the point look as a chart of where the minimum wage should be right now if it had kept up with inflation since the late 60s till about 2003. Only because the economy took a dive did the minimum wage get close to matching inflation adjusted estimates of where it “should” have been. So since 1968 the tips/wages for all minimum wage employees “should” have increased it’s just those in tipped positions that can take advantage of etiquette that says what you should do.
And to reference another comment from before on a side note, tipping a gardener and maid is something that is totally understandable and in my family done especially around the holidays. It is a recognition of working your butt off for not that much money. And everyone in the comments that says they’re appalled by servers demanding to be paid more when they chose a lower paying job, you bust your ass as a server. If it were easier to make that higher pay as a serve than to get a “real job” why isn’t everyone lining up to serve?? The times you don’t work your butt off you’re not making money anyway cause you’re slow. And you’re not getting health benefits which is hitting all Americans harder year by year and you don’t accrue vacation and you don’t get holiday overtime even though you have to work every holiday, and to top it off your income isn’t always consistent because schedules rotate and stations rotate and rain gets you called off when you’re scheduled to work the patio. It’s like saying how dare a salesman demand commission from us! The employer should just pay them a flat salary no matter how much business they bring in. But hen the consumer would have to pay more for the same crap. Also, if every restaurant paid minimum wage in america, you’d have a lot of illegal immigrants taking those jobs cause nobody else would want them. It would be exactly the same as what happened to the back of house positions already. Who’s gonna work the kitchen once the Hispanic immigrants start to see major jumps in their social status??? I’ll probably just eat at home cause restaurants will be too expensive. :)
And to others who say that servers should work hard regardless of what money they make cause it’s their job always seem to be the same people who want to pay less in taxes on their capital gains that they work oh so hard for. There’s a reason it’s called making your money work for you. Too bad I have poorly educated money with a lack of motivation. Stupid generation x money and it’s lack of proper work ethic… :P
In reply to David K
Thank you for FINALLY answering my long question regarding the increase in tipping. It is nice that, though I do disagree with your stance on tipping, you do give excellent points on the system as well.
You are absolutely correct on demographics. 10 different people will give you 9 different responses particularly in this category of payment (if it should even be considered payment).
You did mention commission–this is not DIRECTLY assumed from the customer. Meaning the employee simply gets a percentage of payment as a result from a sale he/she made and this payment is given from the EMPLOYER to the EMPLOYEE. Why can’t wait staff do something like this? Meaning if the waiter/waitress successfully served 20 tables, he/she receive a bigger pay check from his/her employer?
This is now back to my “service versus cashier” argument. Serving and being a wal mart cashier are essentially both non-skilled entry level jobs. Common Sense dictates that a person take the higher paying position, right? So why serve in the first place? Why not work at Wal Mart? I could even continue–why not work at say sanitation, where entry level pays at about $12/hour? Sure its dirty and you come home smelling like death, but hey it pays, right?
As per the “illegal immigrants” dilemna, this is why all wage regulation and the such should be elminiated. So no minimum wage AT ALL, no requirement by the employer to pay the employee any benefits, etc. This would allow for true market capitalism while also seeing a greater level of competition amongst restaurants.
BTW, yes I do want to pay less on my capital gains tax and why not? I am tired of the gov taking my income away from each of my paycheck, why should they take anything away from my gains?