The Results are in – Reaching out to the right

Days ago, I started an experiment to reach out to the other side and start a dialogue. Commenting for five days on the blog with a number of people was…interesting. After days of trying, I think I may have made matters worse. If you read the last 10 comments or so, they now seem to think I’m a bigger threat than anyone else! The 170 comments finally ended with an orgy of virulent bashing.

So much for that idea…

I think the sense of threat pervading these individuals is far too strong. They’re terrified that Islam is going to take over India and that the agenda of all Muslims is to kill them.  As Sraboney’s article pointed out, when you’re threatened, you don’t let go of settled notions easily.

Incidentally, there weren’t any suggestions from anyone regarding what to actually do about this perceived threat though I gave them several opportunities to put some forward by inviting them to imagine what they would do if they were in power. So in the end, all the hatred etc seems to be undirected and not tilted towards any particular action.

When political leaders who have such individuals as their base come to power, one of the things that can happen is that they will foment communal violence by playing up the “threat” angle to get votes. In fact, this is what we have seen in the recent past. Everyone is out to “protect” themselves. The Shiv Sena wants to “protect” themselves from non Maharashtrians, and Hindutva types want to “protect” themselves from Islam. Paranoia and conspiracy theories run wild as they’re convinced that society, and the media are biased against them and are going to…what? The most interesting part is that the threat is undefined.

And in the end, there was a consensus that I was the biggest threat of all!

But still I’m hopeful. I’m an optimistic guy after all :) . I have confidence that our Indian democracy will survive all this and decades later we can just look back on all these problems we have and laugh.

What do you think of this post?
  • Agree (4)
  • Don't Agree but Interesting (0)
  • You're an asshole (0)

116 thoughts on “The Results are in – Reaching out to the right”

  1. which are the violent religions IYV? list all

    i have more ability to prove what i say than you have when you throw %'s freely without even bothering about proofs. a proof of what i said here is:-

    "Given the FACT that violent regions and poor development go together, that is a prima facie correlation."

    so pls. list

    Reply

    • In reply to ashwani

      Look, you're making the assertion that religion is the only cause. You have to prove it.

      If religion was the ONLY cause, then no place with religions would be peaceful. This is demonstrably not so. Therefore, logically religion is not the ONLY cause.

      If you feel otherwise, it's you who have to prove it. I just have to listen to you and analyze your logic.

      Reply

  2. jp,

    i started this disc. becs of your assertion that muzzis are not a threat.ok?

    so i asked you to explain the occurrence of two events that i mentioned(post 49).for which you have still not explained as to how your assertion and the events harmonise.and you have been making assertsons one after another without proof(as in the last post) and not explaining the basic question that i raised.

    how you can say in view of the two events that the muzzis are not a threat.people have already faced the threat,contrary to your assertion.that is what you have to explain.

    as regrdng my onus i shall not shirk but first defend your assertion.

    Reply

    • In reply to ashwani

      Bhagwad, Would it have made significant difference in your opinion to entire thread had ashwani instead said 'Islam is a threat' and not "Muslims"? I guess, your line of argument would have been quite different, because in which case citing example of nonviolent Muslims would have not worked.

      I also feel, there is little point trying to prove causation in terms of isolated single factors. E.g., not all infected by Mycobacterium tuberculosis develop tuberculosis, but nobody disputes in medical community that the cause of tuberculosis is Mycobacterium tuberculosis, despite the fact that other similar organisms occasionally cause tuberculosis.

      Of course, which is certainly not to mean we all should use logic the way medical community does. :)

      Perhaps, it would be more productive (whatever that means, given the fact that Bhagwad is not a policy-maker, and I guess, nor is ashwani) if large scale problems would be looked at as multifactorial, and trying to also delineate all the confounding factors.

      Reply

      • In reply to Ketan

        I don't know if it would have made a difference. After all, what does "threat" mean? In your apt example, is the bacteria in question a threat if just 0.01% of infected people fell ill? For me, the answer would lie in the percentages involved.

        So if I can show that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are non violent, I think I can safely claim that it's not Islam per se that is the threat, but something else that pushes it. After all, what is it about Islam that's a threat? It's teachings? The Bible is a more violent book page for page than the Quran!

        Reply

  3. becs of your assertion that muzzis are not a threat.ok?

    There is more than one way to prove something. I proved that most muslims are not a threat. Therefore logically, my statement of "Muslims in general are not a threat" is correct without flaw.

    According to any logician or even any intelligent person in the world, there is no logical prlblem in what I said above.

    I don't need to prove my assertion the way you want me to.

    Reply

    • In reply to bhagwad

      i asked you as to how you harmonise the events with your assertion.not prove it?

      “Muslims in general are not a threat”

      but pakia&kashmir ease themselves of hindu populace.

      similarly soon muslims will ease india of hindu populace.

      all the while muzzis in general were not/are not/will never be a threat to the hindu populace.

      you have great logic.

      Reply

      • In reply to ashwani

        "similarly soon muslims will ease india of hindu populace."

        I think you're overly concerned about the impact of Muslims in India. Long before anything serious happens, the Islamic community themselves will come out in full force against radical elements since most Muslims are decent people who don't want to engage in violence.

        Reply

    • In reply to bhagwad

      Bhagwat & ashwani Perhaps, more difficult question to answer would be, if economics was the cause of violence in Pakistan and Kashmir, why did Muslims not kill each other with the same frequency with which they killed Hindus? :)

      Reply

  4. "the Islamic community themselves will come out in full force against radical elements"
    if it did not come out in pakia & kashmir it never will.it has not come out anywhere in the world.

    so i take it that you are not prepared to answer rgrdng the harmonisation of events with your assertions.and are left with homilies to mouth for indians,while livimg in florida.probably the gory events in india will pleasure your atheistically islamic soul.

    Reply

    • In reply to ashwani

      It's not my job to harmonize anything. I have enough indications that religion is not the only cause of the disturbances you mention. I'm satisfied.

      Islam is in a huge minority here unlike the places you mention, so there's no need to extrapolate events.

      Reply

  5. "It’s not my job to harmonize anything."

    so you can live with your assertions that are in contardiction to factual situations.

    great living

    Reply

  6. if you refuse to see the contradiction who can make you see.you'll always comeup with no contradiction phrase.

    let the readers on your blog decide for themselves.

    Reply

  7. Bhagwad,

    It was heartening to see your posts and responses. I share your concern about the radicalization of a segment of the urban Indian youth. Like you, I have spent some time in their echo- chamber and have been stunned and dismayed at the stuff that passes there as self evident truths. Your relentlessly reasonable posts and questions to their unwaveringly on-script chanting was quite impressive. These kids do not know it, but this is exactly what the Taliban, Islamism and Nazism feel from the inside- same passionately held, absolute and divisive certainties- and for which all manner of "evidence" can be garnered. 

    Their arguments have obvious and easy retorts in an open credible debate. But in an India where the "liberal" space is occupied by a corrupt self serving Congress and an imagination-challenged Left, these inflammatory ideas will continue to gain traction till something catastrophic eventually happens- after which we will course-correct and wonder how we let it happen.

    I also think this Internet Hinduism phenomenon indicates a deeper spiritual need that has remained unmet in a hyper-entrance-examed/IIT-engineered youth. Urban India has been a rapidly transitioning/ materializing society in the last 20-30 years but, unlike the West, we do not emphasize a liberal arts/music education, or even our  native (or alternatively a New Age-y) spirituality. That vacuum and need for a higher calling and role, married to subconscious ancient bigotries that always existed within our communities, leads to the passion one sees on these discussion boards. 

    The Muslim is the easy hate object here- and Islamism has certainly not helped. But this hate can and will find other targets with time. 

    Best regards. 

    Reply

    • In reply to fchiramel

      Hi fchiramel – thanks for your words of support :)

      I'm hoping the course correction won't be brought on by anything drastic. But I'm quite hopeful – the people who feel this way are in a small minority, and it's only because of their loud voice that they're heard. Most people I feel are just too busy to hate so much…

      You may have a point about the deeper spiritual need. It's an interesting analysis that I didn't think of before. If it's true, then China too should be feeling rumblings like these since they too share some of the same aspects of development. Maybe they are and we don't hear about it since their media doesn't let it be referred to…

      Anyway, nice to have you here :)

      Reply

  8. Yes, that's my little thesis. After seeing the energy and arguments driving these folks, I started wondering why is it that so many educated and otherwise intelligent folks indulge in such base generalizing and vicious language.

    Btw a xenophobic Han nationalism does exist in China and has been much commented on. It is racist and targets China's minority non-Han "nationalities"  – Tibetans, Uighirs, calls them backward/superstitious, ungrateful, etc. It has been covertly encouraged by the CCP, ever since peddling the proletariat revolution became a little difficult. They share the same acutely sensed purported historical victimhood and internet vigilantism you see with Internet Hindus, and a similar vocabulary of "traitors" and suchlike. 

    Best.

    Reply

    • In reply to fchiramel

      I would think that China's victimhood as a whole has been the driving force behind the obsessive need to "get ahead" and "show the world." There even used to be a period around 30-40 years ago when it was called a time of "National shame."

      Reply

      • In reply to bhagwad

        Fchiramel and Bhagwad,

        How did IIT get into this disc? Puzzling…. why not NITs also. In fact lets add everybody that has not majored in humanities as a suspect Internet Hindu :-) to be cleared only when they demonstrate sufficient secularism to the standards set by us.

        But that leaves a problem of what to do with other communities in that non-humanities boat- do they get to become Internet Muslims, Internet Sikhs etc or does this only work for Hinduism?

        thanks,
        Jai

        Reply

Leave a Comment