This is an honest question – do people still care about caste in today’s world? A person I know was asked about their caste recently from an otherwise well educated, “progressive” seeming person. The question came out of the blue from nowhere! “What’s your name? Where do you stay? What’re your hobbies? What’s your caste?”
Whoa, hold on there – back up!
I remember watching the movie Aarakshan a few years back and in that, a candidate is repeatedly asked and mocked about their caste. In job interviews no less! And all the while I was thinking to myself “Does this really happen?” So for those who know how things work and what the state affairs is today, please help a person who’s completely “out of the loop” to understand the answers to the following questions:
- Do people still care about caste?
- If so, why?
- How do you know what another person’s caste is? It’s not as if people go around holding plaquards.
- If the only clue to caste is the name, why don’t people simply change their name?
- If in a village everyone knows your caste, then won’t moving to the city end all these questions?
As far as I know, caste is invisible. While it can be difficult or impossible for a person of another race to change their skin color or features, there doesn’t seem to be anything stopping a person from simply “promoting” themselves into a higher caste. If you think your caste is low and want a better life, simply start calling yourself a Brahmin (or whatever the super duper caste is supposed to be) and you should be cool! What stops people from doing this? There must be something I’m missing or caste won’t be such a big deal.
To the best of my knowledge, caste is not something enforced by the government. Like if today I’m a Sikh and tomorrow I want to convert to Buddhism, no one is stopping me. How is caste different? Why would anyone willingly choose to be called a lower caste, face insults every day, be denied admission to schools or whatnot and not just upgrade themselves?
In my 31 years of life, no one has ever asked for my caste, and even if they did I wouldn’t know how to respond. Obviously there seem to be some people who care a great deal. From all accounts, many marriages and other important social events seem to be heavily influenced by it.
But I must admit that the matter is completely beyond my understand. Can anyone help me figure it out?
Why would someone continue in the lower caste? Because of the reservations. A lot of well to do people do it.
There was an episode on satyamev jayate that dealt with this topic.
It is not easy for villagers to move to city because they have lands and livelihood there. Also every caste has its own hierachical structure and politics that makes it very hard to leave.
In reply to Taaza mist
I can understand trying to get reservations. But there are millions of city dwellers who face caste based discrimination – like in the movie Aarakshan. Why don’t they just give up their caste and move on?
India, we think has developed but this problem is still floating in almost all parts of the world except in metros to an extent, I guess. You are lucky that no one has ever asked this question. But I have faced this question quiet often and I was always hesitant to answer that. Now I have studied from an elite Indian college, and I am about to get married. My parents tell me that, even though you have studied a lot, you should marry someone from the clan. Seriously? I have seen people taking caste and society quiet seriously. I would say the educated people too. Where as few rural people who are supposed to take this matter very seriously, want not to be held by the caste. It will take many more years for people to change.
In reply to niranjan
I wonder why though. If caste is such a huge burden to some, can’t they just give it up?
Born and raised in the US. I’m a Muslim, yet I STILL care about caste (Muslims refer to it as linaege rather than caste, but its the same thing). Certain castes simply do things differently than others. Their traditions and living standards are different, not equal, just different.
My family live in a big city in India. Caste is still prevalent.
In the US, kids that have been here for 2-3 generations still concern themselves over caste.
In reply to Western Point of View
So if you’re facing discrimination, why not just become a higher caste and adopt their traditions? Problem solved no?
In reply to bhagwad
People aren’t stupid. Lets say someone adopts the surname Sayed. Even in cities, people know that this person was, maybe a Mughal, or something before that. So let us say you have person A who is a Sayed and person B who changed their name to Sayed. The locals know that person B changed his name to Sayed, therefore even if he uptakes all the traditions etc., the locals will know person B is not an acutal Sayed. Person A will know this as well. He will NOT marry his daughter off to person A. Person B, therefore won’t be able to continue carrying his pseudo-Sayed name to the next generation.
The moral of this story is even if Person B changed his name and practiced all of the “traditions” the actual members of the caste aren’t dumb and will know of such an issue.
Also, another thing with Muslims is facial features etc. Unlike our Hindu counterparts, Muslim caste members are clearly definable by skin color and facial features. Shaykhs and Sayeds more often than not have very light skin (from their Arab ancestors) and have Semitic features (the thin noses, straighter hair and occasionally lighter colored eyes). Pathans have somewhat darkers skin, but lighter than your average Indian. Other lower lineage Muslims tend to look like your average Indians.
I should note that the caste system with Muslims is VERY loosey-goosey, yet a caste member A can usually be identified simply by his/her skin color over caste member B.
In reply to Western Point of View
But in the cities no one knows who anyone is. At least for things like job interviews etc I find it extremely unlikely that a single person can keep track of of the castes of 10 million individuals. Is that right, or am I missing something?
I don’t know about the Muslim caste system, so here I’m only talking about the caste system as practiced by Hindus.
In reply to bhagwad
The thing with the Muslim caste system is it doesn’t go outside of the family. Most Muslim people know each other in India (as large as that population is) or know somebody that knows somebody that knows somebody.
Even in big cities, if you go to the majority Muslim areas, they all know each other. If you go to non-Muslim areas where Muslims live, they still know the people in the Muslim districts.
With that in mind, if someone changes his name from, say Moghul to Sayed, everyone else knows about it. The grapevine in Muslim communities is quite strong.
The caste system usually only applies to marriages. outside of this arena in Muslim communities it doesn’t really matter. Business etc is not affected by the caste system.
The Muslim caste system is slightly different. As I mentioned, someone named Shaykh or Sayed will probably have lighter skin complexion and look more akin to someone from the Caucus mountains rather than from India.
One excellent example are Bollywood stars. Most of them are named Khan. Those guys are in the upper strata of Muslim castes. Salman Khan shares facial features with someone from Central Asia or the MIddle East. Aamir Khan has light skin complexion. Saif Ali also looks more Central Asian/Middle Eastern.
Someone named Ansar (Aziz Ansari) tend to have darker complexion and look more like a typical Indian person.
Again its very loosey goosey but people care about it nonetheless.
In reply to Western Point of View
Like I said, I’m not discussing the muslim caste system here.
In reply to bhagwad
Got it. When you said caste, I’m not sure if you meant caste systems worldwide or just in India. Lots of countries have societies based on caste–Central Asia, Middle East, etc.
So with my descriptions, how is the Muslim caste different than your issues with the Hindu caste?
Also, if someone doesn’t pay attention to his/her caste, doesn’t that put them in a place where you are in a group of “non caste” people? People that care about caste pay attention, while those that don’t care don’t pay attention.
And again, we’re people, we aren’t stupid. If some Patel started calling themselves Brahmin, don’t you think others in the Brahmin community would figure it out, even in big cities? If you started seeing someone, wanted to marry them, lied to his/her parents about your caste, won’t they figure it out?
In reply to Western Point of View
I literally have no idea about the Muslim caste system, so it really makes no sense for me to have a discussion based on that…
Not paying attention to your caste doesn’t work when other people don’t treat you the same way. In such a scenario it is very beneficial to me to just claim to be a higher caste. If I was a Jew in Germany during that period, I would have surely pretended to be something else if I could have gotten away with it.
About the Patel thing – how would a Brahmin be able to figure out in the absence of tangible evidence?
In reply to bhagwad
The Brahmin father would simply ask around about such a kid. Brahmins know each other I’m sure. This has happened in Surat (big city). Kid lied, said he was a Shah, but was actually Patel I think, the father didn’t give his daughter away.
The thing with the caste system is it creates a network of people. That network stays strongly connected even in places such as Mumbai or Dehli. If you grew up in a Patel family that specific family knew generations of Patels, moving over to, say a Shah family would be difficult simply because the Shah family also knows generations of Shah members. This strong network prevents any type of mobility from one caste to another.
That is no different than a Muslim caste.
The Jew thing wouldn’t really work in Germany simply because Jews have distinct facial features AND the Germans themselves kind of knew their own clan versus non-Aryan clans. Again, people aren’t stupid. Don’t you think Jews would have figured this out rather than going to the gas chamber?
In reply to Western Point of View
I’m pretty sure the Jews would have tried everything they could have. Obviously it didn’t work. Of course, like you said they were a different race altogether so it’s not easy to just wake up one day as something else.
But in big cities – I find it tough to believe that anyone can have such a large network to cover 10 million people. And if you go for a job interview, there’s no way the interviewer is going to put in the effort to find out what your “real” caste is. In that situation, becoming something else must be trivial.
In reply to bhagwad
But to go back to liberty, doesn’t the owner of a private firm have every right to discriminate against a specific caste? I mean it is HIS private firm, right? I mean if I don’t want to hire a black person in my company, that is up to me, right? Any government that gets in the way of that is basically interfering with how I perform business.
You may not know 10 million people, but today moreso than ever, all people have only a 4-5 degree of separation. In India, that degree of separation actually comes down to 3-4.
The other thing about a caste such as Brahmin is that an elite class is already small. The Brahmin class of Gujarat is small, so all Brahmins in Ahmadabad pretty much know each other.
In reply to Western Point of View
Sure, he has the right. And I have the right to lie about my caste :)
In reply to bhagwad
Absolutely you do but powerful people have their connections. Brahmins are already at the upper strata of society. They will find out one way or another if they want to.
In today’s world, finding about someone is very easy. This includes caste.
If you changed your name from Patel to Shah, all you’ve gotta do is go through some medical records (the rich and powerful can do this easily) and just see the names of your parents. They will see both of your parents were named Shah.
It sounds like a lot of work, but if I want to, I can easily do that.
So you absolutely have the right to lie about your caste. But the truth comes out one way or another.
In reply to Western Point of View
Actually no. It’s against the law for private companies to discriminate on the basis of caste and it is completely illegal to reject a lower caste candidate based merely on their caste. People do it nevertheless, but then they also force their children into marriages they never wanted and people give ‘gifts’ to the grooms. So while this stuff is very pevalent, it is actually illegal. They don’t have the right to discriminate.
In reply to Fem
I agree it’s against the law…and I feel that all things considered, that’s a good thing. From a strictly principled liberal perspective however, discrimination based on race/caste whatever is a personal choice and government rules prohibiting it are invasive. Nonetheless I can’t deny that anti discrimination laws have done a lot of good.
It’s a classic “too much of a good thing” argument. I’d written about it earlier: http://www.bhagwad.com/blog/2012/rights-and-freedoms/should-private-temples-be-allowed-to-discriminate-based-on-gender-and-caste.html/
In reply to bhagwad
Those so called “good things” from anti discriminatory laws are a a fascade. It is just like affirmative action in the US.
You have a white student–he scored a 95% on a test. You have a black student. He scored an 85% on a test. Both students are identical in every other way (school, extra curriculur etc). The university selects the black student. Why? Because of his race. The school chose the slightly lower performing student OVER a higher performer.
It essentially leads to an “equalizing” system that causes work performance to go down as a result of trying to be “PC.” It doesn’t work.
“From a strictly principled liberal perspective however, discrimination based on race/caste whatever is a personal choice and government rules prohibiting it are invasive.”
Absolutely, they are invasive. Nothing more than the socialist machine of India invading on people’s rights arbitrarily. The US has this, but is thankfully correcting its mistakes.
In reply to Western Point of View
That’s not how affirmative action works in the US. The idea is that if both students get equal marks (95%), then they will give the black student preference. This is in contrast to India that has actual quotas. It also means helping with finances etc.
Also, being PC has nothing to do with government policies. Being PC means you use acceptable words and language to refer to something. It’s not illegal to be PC.
In reply to bhagwad
The Idea is if both students get such marks, however in practice this does not necessarily occur. Also, even so, the black student may also have one other issue–testing in, say a California developmental school may be tougher than a Vermont private school. Even though both receive a 95% on the same test (i should note that each state has different standardized tests), the black student may simply have scored a 95% due to the test being easier in California than Vermont.
PC does end up having to do with government policies. The fact that we even have a Civil Rights Act has EVERYTHING to do with PC. We don’t need to the government telling us that discrimination is wrong. Let us figure that stuff out for ourselves.
Like I said in the other thread, give me the right to discriminate. If I don’t want to hire a Patel, that is my right. I don’t need a government entity to tell me otherwise.
And even so, how would you get people to become PC? Through public schools? The government has no right to teach such ideas. Through social engineering? The only way to start something that scale would be behind a government entity. The only legitimate way to allow for social engineering to spring is through non-governmental agencies–viral videos, the internet, etc. THat is acceptable, however the PC status quo MUST also accept that there will always remain a silent majority that feels the right to discriminate–this includes discrimination against caste.
In reply to Western Point of View
In which case, your objection is the implementation of the law not the law itself. And I don’t agree that being PC has anything to do with the government. Being PC is about private individuals regulating their speech and expression out of their own free will. Government banning of discrimination is different issue altogether.
Also, I highly doubt public schools teach people to be PC. Is there a syllabus?
In reply to bhagwad
My objection is to the law itself as we do not need any act to tell us how treat groups that are not apart of the status quo.
Public schools DO teach PC. Martin Luther King Day is a national holiday, for example. His actions led to the Civil Rights Act implementation. That in itself is a form of PC–to appease a certain group by provinding a holiday.
Providing heavy emphasis on civil rights leaders and teaching children NOT to use the N word to describe African Americans is a form of PC. The term “negro” was a term used to define African Americans, but even school children are told that the term “negro” is wrong–not PC. Why teach this? Why bother? Is it going to “hurt someone’s feelings?”
I have nothing against MLK (great leader and great orator) but there are many others. Why a Black Man?
Great example:
Administrators at a California high school sent five students home after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo, the Mexican Day of Independence.
Being “politically correct…” Sending kids home wearing an AMERICAN flag on Cinco de Mayo in a California School.
Another example: The Maine Human Rights Commission has proposed banning ANY gender divisions in public schools after ruling that, under the Maine Human Rights Act, a school discriminated against a 12-year-old transgender boy by denying him access to the girls’ bathroom. As a result, in the near future, Maine schools may have no gender differences in sports teams, school clubs, bathrooms, or locker rooms.
Source: http://listverse.com/2010/10/26/10-ridiculous-cases-of-political-correctness/
If that isn’t forcefully teaching our kids Political Correctness, then I don’t know what this is.
In reply to Western Point of View
Again, that is not what PC means. It refers to voluntary words and actions by private individuals so as to not appear to be jerks to others. Is there a syllabus or exam that teaches children to be PC? And is it illegal to not be PC?
Besides, I have no issues with schools doing what’s best for the harmony of the environment because children are not full fledged adults and don’t have all the rights that regular adults do. If these examples were about adults being expelled from a public place of gathering because of their clothes, then I would have a problem.
Kids are not individuals with full rights and responsibilities.
In reply to bhagwad
Sorry, I should have brought up additional “PC” mandates in our American justice system.
“A judge down in North Carolina has ruled that it is unconstitutional for North Carolina to offer license plates that say “Choose Life” on them.”So it isn’t PC to mention Choose life, but it is perfectly PC to allow “Pro Choice.”
Another example of PC:
“According to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, it is illegal for employers to discriminate against criminals because it has a “disproportionate” impact on minorities”–c’mon give me a break, right?
Also, that Mexican Flag? That was at a high school. How do you know if the kids that wore the American flag weren’t 18 year old seniors? Aren’t they technically adults at that point?
PC is ruining things. You describe it as a social occurence, but it has already crept into the government. We don’t need more of it.
If that means we have to discriminate against caste, then let it be. I have every right to discriminate against caste. Lower castes have no place in my house nor any of my private holdings. Don’t I have that right?
In reply to Western Point of View
You should check out the license plate case. The judge said the law was unconstitutional because it only allowed certain types of speech on the plate. It was actually upholding full freedom of speech. If the law had been unbiased from the start, it would have been ok. This is actually an example of the judge striking down PC laws.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/12/federal-court-rules-north-carolina-choose-life-license-plate-unconstitutional/
I agree that the EEOC thing is ridiculous.
And once again, no one is removing your right to discriminate against castes, blacks or whatever. Your house is still your house.
In reply to bhagwad
Thanks for the link. THe full story makes up for it. So in that case, it seems that the US is going TOWARDS a less PC environment.
One good example of the US going away from PC laws is bilingual education. If you don’t know english, we don’t cater to you. I’m glad that is currently being removed.
In reply to Fem
This is an unfair and injust law. As a soverign human being, I have EVERY RIGHT to discriminate based on caste. Who are you to tell me otherwise.
If we take that argument to our private homes, does that mean we cannot discriminate what caste goes into our homes?
This is completely unfair. My rights have been completely taken away. NO one should tell me how to discriminate. It is my right as a human being.
If I don’t want to have a lower class caste member in my house, that is my right. A private company is no different than a house–it is privately owned (public is different btw).
In reply to Western Point of View
Good point. One’s real world identity is not like an internet alias, where you can be whoever you wish, unless someone finds out that you’re a poser. Faking antecedents in the real world is not only more difficult, but carries some very real and damaging ramifications. People have a name, as well a family background that anyone can easily check. Not to mention – appearance, accent, way of talking, etc.
I can not only tell Indian by regions, but also distinguish European people with a fair degree of accuracy, from one part of Europe to another. The name is often the most obvious marker and in case of ambiguities, it is not that hard to distinguish a Slavic woman for example, from a Gallic or Saxon woman.
In reply to bhagwad
Surnames are usually based on caste. One way of getting around this is to change it to a name like Kumar. Although Christianity is caste less, many Christians hang on to their former Hindu castes. Just read the matrimonial columns. Often you’ll see ads which specify caste eg. “Christian Brahmin groom” or “Catholic Khatri girl”…I’ve never been asked my caste either by friends or employers.
In reply to Sraboney Ghose
IIRC in the movie “Aarakshan”, a guy goes to a job interview and the interviewer mocks him for having the surname “Kumar” which I guess must be a lower caste. I remember thinking – wow, these guys actually know the status of each of the thousands of surnames in the country? Amazing!
In reply to bhagwad
It doesn’t solve the problem that way. Changing oneself to suit the way other people look at him/her will not solve the problem. It is his/her basic right to practice or not practice a religion the way he/she likes it without being looked down. Right? It is as much the same like wanting to be fair skinned just to be accepted by others.
In reply to Pink
I agree it’s not good to change yourself for the approval of others. In this case however, I feel there are two differences.
1. Caste is not an essential part of oneself. It’s just a random thing tagged onto you. It has no basis in reality.
2. If my life becomes really tough to live because of something, I might just change it. If for example, I was a Jew and could have escaped persecution and death at the hands of the Nazis (though unlikely of course), no one would think less of me if I changed my religion – even though religion is a lot more “real” than caste is.
I guess caste has been brought up in certain conversations I have with my friends – more for discussing the idiosyncrasies of a particular community ( for example, the community that I was born in does certain rituals / has food preparations that are unique to the community ), and not as some criteria for judgement. It is more like asking someone if they are the Alumni of a certain university so that they can discuss how Prof. XYZ was.
I don’t believe in the caste system at all, and I am mostly surrounded by people ( especially contemporaries ) who think the same way. Once in a while, someone comes along and attaches more importance to caste than is warranted and surprises me.
About giving up caste system, I guess in India, everyone ( who cares ) has an incentive to keep their caste. The higher caste people will want to retain their caste for bragging rights. The lower caste people will want to retain their caste for economical benefits offered by the government. The caste system would have lost its steam, at least in the non-personal sphere if the government did not ask for the caste on every application form and just gave benefits to people who needed it the most. Our politicians would not have pandered for vote from “their” communities if there was no way they could promise perks solely based on caste – but they can and it fuels caste wars.
For me, as a person working in the private sector, outside of India, I have no incentive to retain my caste in any sphere. Personally, I don’t care. Professionally, it does not matter. It just gets reduced to this inane and useless tidbit about myself rather than defining me in any way.
In reply to Clueless
From what I’ve seen, not all lower castes benefit from reservations. I’ve heard that only the top 20% of them get something out of it. They would surely have an incentive no?
I used to have the same impression as you, but then I moved to Hyderabad for higher education and learnt a lot about this issue. For one, if you don’t care about caste, to some extent, that’s a marker of privilege. Most Dalits have to care about caste because they are discriminated by it. Second, none of us are immune to caste as we think. Even someone like me who thought I had no experience with caste realised I had some.
The most obvious caste marker is name. However, even neutral names don’t save you because social ties in communities are so strong people know other people’s family histories and find it easy to check on ‘origins’.
I am Christian, which supposedly does not recognise caste at all and our surnames are Portuguese. However, memories go back a long way. All the Goan Christians at least from my mum’s era know which caste everyone ‘originally’ belonged to. There’s a stigma attached to marrying someone from a lower caste. For example, when my cousin wanted to marry a boy whose family had been friends with ours forever, her grandmother disapproved on grounds of him being from a lower caste, even though she was friends with his grandmother. When my mum wanted to marry my dad, someone asked her his caste; she had no idea and asked her older sister, who said: “Do you think I would have let you marry someone who was not from our caste?” Many lower caste people converted to Buddhism and Christianity but the stigma remains. It muddies the water a bit, but then there’s some blanket discrimination against people from these religions because their caste is not clear.
One can change one’s caste for job interviews. But one has to be a good liar and be sure that one’s job is insulated from one’s social relations. Many caste traditions are learnt by growing up with them. It would be hard for an outsider to know what they are. In the office it’s fine, but what about if you’re invited to your boss’s home? And in India, I would fear real violence if I was found to be faking caste.
When househunting in Hyderabad, we were turned away a lot until my friend mentioned she’s an Iyer. Then there were smiles all around. I can imagine saying I’m an Iyer and then being found out by the landlord that I’m not. It’s possible to fake I’m sure, but that kind of pretense takes its toll and is an oppression of it’s own.
Most lower caste people who scrape together the resources to move to a city will tend to live among their clan members. So people from other clans know them as belonging to that caste. The city does provide some anonymity but it’s not as opaque as you imagine.
In reply to The Bride
Bride, agree 100% with every single point you made so eloquently.
In reply to The Bride
Wow – that’s really something. People have long memories huh? Do you feel the younger generation cares as much as the older one? If so, it’ll die a natural death. Or do people start caring more and more as they become older just like they often become more religious and authoritarian?
But bleh – this is a moot point. As long as reservations continue in education, people will always be conscious of caste I guess. There’s no incentive to forget!
In reply to bhagwad
In my community (and I can’t speak for others), I feel the younger generation doesn’t care. Already in the previous generation, you could see the influence fading as my mother wasn’t aware of her own caste. Though I was aware of mine, because when we were kids a neighbour was boasting of her caste and my dad blurted out that we are the same. However, being aware of it didn’t really change me in a significant way because beyond knowing the caste I belonged to, I didn’t know what was special about it. My husband is from a different community and I have no idea what caste he belongs to. My husband’s parents have no idea what caste I belong to.
On the other hand, I see upper caste youngsters of a certain caste bandying their caste around as a community marker. They don’t mean it to denigrate others, often they are poking fun at themselves, but I wish they wouldn’t given the history of the caste system. And no matter how lighthearted they claim to be, when it comes to the crunch in getting a coveted job or home, it is very tempting to ride on caste commonality.
I think that while migration to cities has definitely not erased caste, it has muddied the waters a bit. Intermarriage also helps. So maybe in 50 years, it will be all mixed up and we’ll be rid of this menace.
I’m of the opinion that reservation helps. When I was in Hyderabad, a senior asked me if I had any Dalit friends. I realised the only Dalit friends I had were through reservations. Because we are privileged, we don’t realise how we are probably not even interacting with a whole section of people because the caste system has segregated them economically and socially. I believe that reservations gave these students a shot at integrating. Ignoring structural inequalities and pretending that caste doesn’t exist will never solve the problem. As the younger generation of upper caste people change their attitude to caste, we need structural measures to uplift the lower castes who as I pointed out in my earlier comment still are discriminated against. Affirmative action may not be the perfect way, but until better solutions are proposed and implemented, this one should stay.
In reply to The Bride
I think economics trumps caste. You can be the lowest of the low but as long as you have money in India, all doors are thrown open to you. In principle I’m against reservations, but if we’re going to have them in the first place, let’s base them on economics instead of caste. The poor dalits will still be covered.
The difference is that a poor person can become rich. And vice versa. But caste can never change. So yes, I believe that the law should be completely blind to caste and ignore it completely. Money should be the only factor that’s recognized. It’s not as “sticky” as caste and it can be earned too.
In reply to bhagwad
I’m ok with reservations for those from lower income groups. But the rationale for carving out a special quota for caste is that they are twice disadvantaged. By and large, the “lowest” castes are economically backward (the percentage of those who are not and who avail of reservations is small, despite what a lot of ‘meritorious’ people argue). But they are also socially disadvantaged. The social disadvantages put barriers that make it even more difficult to move up the ladder economically. Maybe now we can have means-testing for caste-based so the so-called creamy layer is excluded.
I have thought about some of the questions you’ve asked and my answers and understanding keep changing every now and then.
Do people still care about caste?
– People still care too much about caste. Even more so than religion. I have seen the ugliest example within my family. My grandmother used to do it. One of the reasons I never managed to love her even though she was a direct blood relation. She used to expect my mother to run all the dishes that our domestic help washed under water again. I guess to “purify” the dishes. I never got over the fact that our domestic help was extremely clean and I found my grandmother’s understanding of hygiene questionable. The reason I can accept to redo the dishes. Although, then I’d just change the domestic help with hygiene was a problem.
If so, why?
I can only give answer based on my personal experience.
1. I have observed that people are scared of showing disregard to caste fearing that they might be shunned by the members of their own caste. If they disregard their caste, they will be misfits. People from their own castes will shun them and equally fanatic people from other castes will treat them as outsiders.
2. People “actually believe” being born in a certain caste makes them better by default. Ignorance, what else.
3. People’s beliefs remain unquestioned throughout their lives. It’s important for such discussions to happen, if only to make people think. I have also seen them happen in college. But I found them ineffective because only privileged people talked. And by privilege in this sense I mean people from the so-called upper caste…whatever that means!
I distinctly remember a discussion on pros and cons of reservation and one girl felt that it was wrong to have reservation because her brother didn’t get through his desired uni due to it and the poor guy had to go to USA for higher studies. The girl completely seemed to have missed the point that her brother had the option to go. Most people don’t.
4. People like to speculate and make assumptions because to them you are odd if you are not into caste and all and they feel sorted and superior. They actually pity you and discuss that you show disregard because unfortunately your daughter fell for a guy from another caste and you now have to say this even though you cry at home.
I’m not kidding, Real story. My husband and I are from different castes by birth. I say by birth cause we don’t believe, care about it at all. We had a registered marriage only because we aren’t religious either and don’t like random priests coming and saying random prayers to validate our union. Plus our parents aren’t into these ceremonies either. But people mistook our decision to go for a registered marriage and thought we had to do it due to caste difference.
How do you know what another person’s caste is? It’s not as if people go around holding plaquards.
If the only clue to caste is the name, why don’t people simply change their name?
I would totally change my name. But first, I’m too lazy to actually go through the hassle when something pretty standard like getting an “Aadhar card” in India also takes ages and meticulous follow-up. And second, I don’t think that would make any difference unless people collectively decided to not discuss caste. Even if people didn’t guess my caste from my name, they wouldn’t be embarrassed to ask really inappropriate questions or even do some Sherlockgiri on their own and deduce my caste on the basis of my way of talking, my food preferences, the way I dress etc.
If in a village everyone knows your caste, then won’t moving to the city end all these questions?
I find people in cities worse. They try very hard to be politically correct and not directly talk about caste. But in the back of their heads, that’s what they are most interested in and would ask rather cunning questions so that would help them ascertain your caste.
Sorry for the painfully long response. This topic is very close to my heart.
In reply to mostlymisfit
Wow – that’s really depressing. That people will go poking around to find out what your so-called “true” caste is. They must really love hierarchies no matter where they stand in them!
Though I feel being politically correct is the first step to eradication. Being PC at least means you know in your heart that it’s a bad thing and but can’t help yourself. Hopefully that feeling will get more fleshed out as time goes by or communicates itself to the kids.
In reply to bhagwad
I totally agree. Being PC will probably at least discourage people from throwing dirt at each other in public. The least we can expect.
In reply to mostlymisfit
Being PC does not work. Trust me, its been done in the US and has not taken us anywhere except reverse discrimination.
It is one’s right to uphold a caste. It is one’s right not to hire someone as a result of someone being in a lower caste. As long as no one gets physically hurt or has their life, liberty and property compromised.
I have every right to discriminate as a soverign human being.
We have to understand that people are not equal, they are different.
In reply to Western Point of View
No one is disputing your right to hire or not hire, treat or not treat differently. But we all want to move to a world where people don’t notice things like caste. The idea is to make them give up these ideas willingly. And political correctness is the first step. It’s not legal pressure. It’s not physical force. It’s social pressure.
And I have every right apply social pressure on people. They’re free to ignore it if they want. Their choice!
In reply to bhagwad
I dont’ want to move to a world where we don’t notice things like caste. I like things such as caste. Equality is rubbish and the fact that caste exists solidifies that.
I don’t want certain people to be treated “equally.” I do believe people should be treated fairly.
Political correctness leads to reverse discrimination and it also becomes a big smoke screen.
If one disagrees with President Obama, he is automatically deemed a racist.
I don’t believe the country of Israel should exist. When I voice this opinion, I am automatically anti-semitic.
In reply to Western Point of View
O I forgot one more example of PC. I know this is controversial, but in Germany, it is ILLEGAL to procure any material that could potentially DENY the Holocaust.
So If I want to freely express my beliefs regarding the Holocaust, I am not allowed to do that in Germany due to Political Correctness.
What gives?
In reply to Western Point of View
Germany and most of EU doesn’t have complete freedom of expression, so it’s hardly surprising. You can say whatever you want in the US though.
In reply to bhagwad
Well, in the name of PC, not really. As I mentioned earlier (perhaps it didnt come up), a judge in North Carolina a judge said it was unconstitutional for a woman to have a car license plate that reads “Choose Life.” A pro choice license, however was not shot down. I mean c’mon give me a break.
In reply to Western Point of View
I addressed this case in another comment. The court struck down a law that only allowed pro life number plates. Pro choice number plates were specifically not allowed. I’d provided a link. In this situation, the judges ruled as unconstitutional a law that prohibited certain types of speech.
It actually shows that being PC isn’t a law based issue.
In reply to bhagwad
“Being PC at least means you know in your heart that it’s a bad thing and but can’t help yourself.”
Actually that not how PC works. By its very definition, being politically correct means regulating your *speech* and *behaviour* in a way that is inoffensive to those who shouldn’t ideally be antagonised against. It generally does so with the expectation that if people stop dishing dirt against others in public, the thoughts of antagonism will disappear. However, it does not actually happen, as Western Point of View argued. You can’t regulate thoughts and despite the best efforts, prejudice and xenophobia is difficult to obliterate. You simply push in under the carpet.
Political correctness can even be used to justify and gain mass support for discrimination. In mainland India for instance, it is not uncommon for Hindus to use their anger against secularism as a way to rally support from other Hindus, against Christians and Muslims. The same rationale is used for caste-ism as well. If the minorities and scheduled castes are perceived to get favourable treatment at the cost of the majority or upper caste, an individual person who feels prejudicial against that group feels justified for his/her prejudice.
In reply to Akhim Lyngdoh
*thats not how
In reply to Akhim Lyngdoh
No, the reasons for being PC are entirely selfish. People are PC so that they won’t be badly regarded by others for being jerks or assholes. When a person is not PC, it means they think that others won’t view them as assholes. Being PC is the first step to change since it means that the attitudes of people in general are changing.
I didn’t really get the example of secularism and political correctness. Reservations have nothing to do with being PC. PC is just speech or writing or expression. It doesn’t translate into government policy.
In reply to bhagwad
It seems however that the discriminated group has to be less PC than the group up in the status quo.
People are people. They have their opinions and being PC doesn’t help. Like I said, the discriminated group acquires a sense of entitlement. Blacks don’t work as hard simply becuase if they do get fired by their white boss, a black can EASILY argue it was due to discrimination–the boss wasn’t being “PC.” Also, this allows for blacks to live and thrive in a welfare state
In reply to bhagwad
I don’t think the threat of being *regarded* as assholes and jerks by a certain section of a society ever deterred people from voicing their opinions, unless it is accompanied by some actual sanction(s) against such opinions. Being regarded as an asshole or a jerk is not as bad as one might believe, particularly if your lack of conformity to arbitrary social diktats is perceived to give you an aura of charm and honesty.
In reply to Akhim Lyngdoh
It works quite well. It’s the primary reason why most of us sit through boring conversations with a smile, respond politely etc. It’s the main reason why we shake hands with people who extend theirs to us even if we don’t want to.
I would in fact say that it’s a more powerful deterrent than the laws themselves.
The only way that I see an end to this problem is if the government does away with it. Nobody wants to be an sc or st but when it comes to reservation they want it. Being a Brahmin is advantageous in some ways and is a big disadvantage as well. A friend of mine who had got 93% was refused admission as she was a Brahmin, so this caste system is a nice sword that we use when we want it for our advantage. Look at any school application job application or any other government form the caste is a vital part.
As for what you say that they should leave the village and move on. Its their home why should they leave and people in cities till this date are nasty too. The garbage man in our area is not even allowed to enter the gate forget about the house(this is not when he is working, he is not allowed to enter even on his day off when he has had a bath and is nice and clean.)
In reply to Athenas Take
Some people have told me they can make out a person’s caste just by looking at them. I wonder how true that is.
In reply to Athenas Take
I’ve never seen a school application form asking for the applicant’s caste.
A lot of people are concerned and do care about castes.I don’t care to know what caste someone is, but I quickly (i.e,in a few weeks/months time) get asked if I am so and so caste.Some people even ask about the sub-caste.I haven’t cared to know what it is and say I don’t know or ‘maybe’ for some guesses that they suggest to help my memory! A lot of times it is annoying to fill up forms asking religion, caste and other such irrelevant details. I don’t care if someone wants to follow a religion or caste but the practice of knowing it or making it a requirement to get a certain opportunity is wicked. Religion,faith,should be something personal, I find it really disturbing when people force religious practices or ask details about caste. There are also a lot of prejudices based on castes and religion. There are good people and bad people in all faiths and religion.Just because someone is from a certain race/religion/caste, it doesn’t necessarily mean they have a certain kind of behaviour.
In reply to Pink
I agree that the very act of knowing it is a burden. Maybe people like a hierarchical world where they can “slot” others into a nice system.
I have heard of a story from a person named seven. His name is Seven Raj. His father named him like that since he was the 7th child and also didn’t want the name to be associated with any religious or caste.
http://www.indiabookofrecords.in/records-gallery/strange-but-true/seven-raj