Was reading this blog post by Women’s Web on what Indian women need to do right from the start of their marriage. Including:
- Calling your husband by his name
- Not being solely responsible for cooking/cleaning
- Not quitting their job
All this is common sense right? Before reading it, I didn’t even know that Indian women don’t call husbands by their name! I mean what do they use instead? “Ji”? I don’t know…. Whatever, the point is that despite the very obvious (to me) advice, the comments section was noteworthy for one interesting fact – all the dissenting views were from men.
One commenter even remarked on this and I found myself unconsciously apologizing for these guys belonging to my gender. Of course, a moment later I realized I had nothing to apologize for. I have no connection whatsoever with them and what they say doesn’t reflect on me…except maybe in the minds of women who have been burned repeatedly.
One comment from a guy says:
“Please don’t get married if you are not ready for marriage.”
The implication being that marriage by its very nature requires women to do the housework/cleaning, to quit their job, and probably not call their husband by their first name. But who gave these individuals the right to determine what marriage entails? Reading further, I saw the following gem:
“Or please marry a non-indian guy”
Ah ha, so here’s the crux of the matter! His conception of a meek woman has nothing to do with marriage, but with Indian marriage. Moreover he asks the women to marry a foreigner, instead of changing his own attitudes. As if the man’s personality is a given…a force of nature. He will have certain expectations period. If you want fair treatment and all, please marry a firang.
I don’t know why, but I shouldn’t be surprised. The much touted “Indian culture” is a sweet deal only for the male half of the coin. The women get rolled over pretty hard. Gotta be a slave and work around the house? Check. Show meekness and “adjust”? Check. Give up a paying job to soothe the man’s ego? Check.
Which man wouldn’t like Indian culture? It’s like expecting the Romans to champion the cause of freedom for slaves!
Of course, not all Indian men are assholes. I have plenty of flaws, but I don’t consider myself to be in this same league of douchebaggery. And I’m hardly alone. I loved this video on Youtube titled “I’m not a woman” apologizing to all women on behalf of Indian men. Again – I don’t believe I’m responsible for what others do, but it’s a nice video nonetheless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdPqGLB18js
The massive enabling factor for the terrible behavior of Indian men towards women is of course…Indian Culture! A ridiculous mish mash of customs and practices designed to justify the worst possible behavior in men. Even Ram – the hero of India’s older Epic – refused to take his wife back after she had been “polluted” by the villain. As if it was her fault that she’d been kidnapped!
“Indian culture” needs to die. Or at least those parts that relate to the treatment of others. There’s no two ways about it, no getting around the fact. Someone needs to take a loaded shotgun, place it right next to the head of Indian culture, and pull the trigger. It’s time has long gone. Now is the period of humanism, of equality, and of fairness.
But for that, Indian men will have to give up many of their benefits. They have to lose all the justifications in their own mind for their terrible behavior. But if that happens, it means they themselves will be responsible for what they do! And that requires courage.
So what do you say? Isn’t it time we all got together and collectively murdered “Indian culture”?
By some of their ‘what passes for logic’, my husband isn’t an Indian at all! I guess what they don’t realize is that many women are choosing – at least those who have the luxury of choice – to marry ‘non Indian’ guys. Men who are perfectly capable of cooking, cleaning and taking care of kids because that’s what you do when you are an adult and want to be part of a healthy relationship. Just as I or any of my friends don’t run away from a spider, pay our bills or hesitate to change a light bulb.
Sometimes I wonder if any of these men have the self awareness to realize that their wives/girlfriends are with them only because they didn’t have any other choice…I may have my pick of a million monkeys but I still end up with a monkey, not a life partner!
In reply to Shilpa
Or the reverse, where the man is perfectly content with neither his wife nor him doing anything and eating out instead (*raises hand*)!
It sounds very nice..but hollow. It is easy to criticize other’s lives & choices..
Culture is what we all have generally accepted practices, that doesn’t shock or fall out-of-acceptable-range with the society. And these limits change..slowly but surely.
Culture is not static and flows through.. there are leaders (like you), who direct for a brief time and there are laggards, who stay a bit longer than needed. The same communities within societies may not always be leaders/laggards.. some may change too soon.. and some may not. It doesn’t aim to go progressively.. but whichever way it goes, we call that progressive, much like evolution. Victorian morality was a progressive era compared to its previous ones.
While it is easy to pick a non-entity like generic-Indian male and ascribe all negative qualities.. and somehow make believe that the poor, option-less, blameless Indian woman, who forever is being tormented by this society is the victim.
In the case mentioned, the choices for men are difficult too:
1. Calling your husband by his name – ‘Ji’ is only customary. You can call ‘Ji’ with as much authority and disrespect as any other name.
2. Not being solely responsible for cooking/cleaning – In such families men are solely responsible for driving, and other outdoor work, which is equally tiring.
3. Not quitting their job – Men can’t quit their jobs even if they want to.
People make choices.. and they choose which battles they want to fight. They may not make the best choice, but they choose. In your typical misogynist scenario, one woman may choose her independence is valuable, may leave her husband, Another one may choose her independence is not worth it when compared to the uncertainty of life, and stay-on. One man, when frustrated by constant tension at home or seeing others in society, may choose to change, another man may feel his superiority more important than his happiness may choose not to. The net effect of millions of such choices is culture. They are not pawns of culture.. they are redefining culture with their every day decisions.
The only thing we need to do is have laws that are gender neutral (in this specific blog’s case), and a legal mechanism to deal with gender equality. The only thing that prevents culture from changing is state intervention preventing it [Eg., a law that prevents women from working late-night at companies., or child-custody rights preferring women].
We don’t have to murder culture.. it’ll change before you even realize it. What we need is to be a good example for all to see, and if they like it the next generation will imbibe the best things in it in no time.
In reply to Murali
I think we can all agree that India needs gender neutral laws. I’ve been talking about this for a long time: http://www.bhagwad.com/blog/2012/rights-and-freedoms/shouldnt-we-make-divorce-laws-gender-neutral.html/
Yes, customs will change over time as long as we have good laws. However, there’s nothing wrong with trying to push it along. And since “Indian culture” is often touted as the basis for bad behavior, I think we can start by pulling it down.
For example, I have no issues if the woman wants to call her husband “Ji” by her own choice. The problem comes when people pressurize her into doing so. Of course she can still say no, and as long as no one uses the threat of force, there is no legal wrong. But it’s not a nice thing to do. Being an asshole is not illegal, but in general we like people to not be assholes…
The issue here is that bad behavior is not called out. People are not called out for being assholes. Instead, they are praised for “following Indian culture”. I want to change the nature of the conversation.
I understand your intention, and mostly agree with your views.
For me ‘murder’ was a rather ghastly verb to use. It means to destroy or not leave a trace of or atleast nothing that survives.
Yes, there is nothing wrong in pushing along a good idea.
A woman is not forced to calling ‘ji’ anywhere in India. We have to understand “force” in a society is physical. She is not punished by law or police. She chooses whether to call ‘ji’ or to leave the relationship. Some (men/women) think this is worth a fight, some think it is not worth the trouble. And some don’t care.
My aunt used to call my uncle ‘ji’. When she was diagnosed with cancer he spent all his money on her treatment and took loans beyond his ability and died in penury. He literally destroyed his life, for saving his love, his wife. If we judge that by just calling ‘ji’ she was oppressed, then we are missing his ‘love’ that they shared. Of course, there would be examples to contrary too.
Customs are supposed to make our life a bit easier by templatizing our daily interactions. Sometimes some templates get outdated.
You don’t like some habits.. don’t follow. You have the freedom, and in allowing that our culture is as good as others. Others will follow you if they find you as a good example.
There is nothing majorly wrong with our culture, and nothing majorly wrongly with our men. Sure, some of us are outdated.. relative to others. If in a remote corner of India, some women wear gunghat, it is becoz they are remote. If they had to daily commute in local trains of Mumbai with its heat, they would be like other mumbaikars. Calling them assholes without understanding the limitations they live in is unfair. We are adaptable (and peacefully so), if not anything.
You definitely can call out bad behavior.. but lets not throw the baby with the bath water.
In reply to Murali
@Murali,
When you talk about choices for women in India, I hope you are talking about ‘real’ and ‘equal’ choices. When a women is legally allowed to choose to call her husband whatever she wants, but the minute she does, she is punished by her ILs, the society – then she does not have an equal choice at all. She ends up ‘choosing’ whatever causes her minimum discomfort, not what she actually wants.
And unfortunately, patriarchy is not just limited to ghungats in remote places. Urban women face this everyday in more subtle, but equally impactful ways – they still move to their ILs place after marriage, earn lesser than their male counterparts, are expected to dress in a certain way in front of ‘elders’, cannot openly talk about feminine things like periods in front of men,…..I can just go on.
Culture is a living , breathing, and an evolving phenomenon. But when most of the Indians talk about culture, they are usually talking about traditions. Our traditions are hugely favored towards men and subjugate women. I think only about 10% are actually acceptable to my sense of ethics.
In reply to Clueless
@Clueless,
I don’t agree with any sense of being a victim in our society (except children). Society is an unfinished business. Adults have to choose. Laws have to support choice.
A Woman cannot be “punished” by her IL/society. She has more than adequate laws to protect herself or even take revenge. Her “choice” to use / abuse it or not use it. Please have a look at the cases in family-courts for the “real” choices.
We all make some choices which cause minimum discomfort. Women & men don’t automatically get a life of their liking.
True.. patriarchy is prevalent in many parts of India (& world). Women & Men, both are victims of patriarchy. More men commit suicides than women, is one indicator that men find it more difficult to live in this society & fail than women. It is unfair to think only ‘men’ created this & benefit from this.
I am glad you like 10% of our traditions, which says you don’t automatically hate anything that is handed-down. There may be some who like 90% of our traditions and some who dislike everything. How does society come to terms with this so diverse a choice?
I believe, if the state (govt) doesn’t force us by irrational/idiotic/biased laws & gives us protection of our rights , our society would correct itself to the direction that we all want. Culture is a by-product of our laws & choices, not our destiny.
For e.g: If govt doesn’t get involved in education & religion in any way, most of us would gravitate to atheism / humanism.
In reply to Murali
Of course “force” only refers to physical coercion. However, my point is that putting emotional pressure on someone to say “ji” or follow any other tradition simply makes them an asshole. Being an asshole is not illegal, but I can at least try and shame people into behaving better no?
In reply to bhagwad
I will slightly differ on that.
—-
Just for example: I only know this from newspapers. I haven’t traveled there.
If in Saudi Arabia, a woman is punished by state for not wearing a hijab, then it is oppression. In this case Culture is the culprit, since state defines & protects the culture. No choice here. Either you adhere or physically harmed without recourse.
If in India, there is emotional pressure from family, it is not oppression. People (adults) have choice. Culture isn’t the culprit here, People have freedom to choose. But my freedom is only to live with others, not to “shame/force” them to my line of thought, however progressive I am.
If people don’t know they have choice, they’re ignorant. If they know and choose, its alright. Shaming is bullying. Show and tell.
In reply to Murali
I’m not disagreeing that people have a choice. Nowhere am I saying that we should make “Ji” (or whatever) illegal.
People have the freedom to choose of course – and they also have the choice to ignore my attempts to shame them. Shaming is a perfectly legal, ethical, and moral tactic.
I believe the route to shaming is one of terminology. Right now, people treat others badly in the name of culture – which sounds noble. My strategy is to change the conversation and say that culture is a bad thing, and that by following their “culture”, they are assholes.
They are free to ignore me.
In reply to bhagwad
Actually, collectively shaming the assholes is a more effective law enforcement technique compared to punishment. The problem here is the “cultural assholes” are glorified by their society. Like somehow forcing your DIL using the word “ji” makes you more moral. That needs to be called out.
We tend to place Indian culture on a pedestal and do not question why we do certain things that are blatantly wrong in the moral sense. @Murali, you told that you are glad I don’t hate Indian culture by default, but you should not be accepting of Indian culture by default too just because it has been passed down to you.
In reply to Clueless
@Bhagwad, @Clueless
By shaming others you’re being no different from them. Shaming is legal just like calling others ‘ji’. But, not very effecting in modifying behavior. We tend to believe that somehow we are better than others in leading their lives. And others tend to believe that they can do wonders, if they had our lives. Shaming (without illegality) is bullying. As a society, if we value freedom, we should only shame illegality.
I agree with your assessment of ills in Indian culture. And I agree with you both that we should attempt to change it.
I am only debating the method to change it.
1. Murder of culture isn’t needed. It evolves fairly soon
2. Shaming of behavior isn’t a great way to change. Being a successful happy person and telling (like in this blog) is enough for others to follow. And, that’s how major social reforms have taken place.
In reply to Murali
For me, bullying is physical violence. Shaming is remarkably effective – especially if it becomes widespread. It works very well all over the world for a number of different practices.
Freedom is the ability to choose to do something otherwise. If I shame someone, they can still choose to do otherwise and thereby retain their freedom. That aspect is still intact.
Being successful and happy is a great way to lead my own life. However, I’d also like to help along the process for others who might find the price of not listening to family members too high. For those individuals, I can help instill some amount of shame.
In reply to bhagwad
I guess we will have to leave it there then. Thanks for the involved discussion. :-)
Dear Author
First thing first, I do not agree with what ever you have mentioned. May be you are sharing your personal grievance but that can not be generalized. I am from late seventies and have never experienced or witnessed anything you mentioned in my family or my friends circle. I am not saying that these things do not exists but that’s not the part of “Indian Culture”. We call it “Kuritis” bad rituals, which exists in each and every cover of the world in different ways. Darkness is nothing, it’s just the absence of light and same way “Kuritis” are the absence of culture. If you murder the “light” you are spreading more darkness. Only way to eradicate these bad rituals is understanding our heritage and culture in a more scientific manner and teach and cultivate in family and school.
Let me tell you a story. A couple of months ago I went to apply for my voter’s ID card in Kolkata. For moral support I took my dad along because I know how those with ‘power’ talk to women (past experience). First of all, the clerk on duty asked me if I was over 25 – I am way over that. I replied yes, but isn’t the legal age for voting 18? They ignored my question and I didn’t pursue it as I wanted to get my work done.
I was given an application form which I duly filled. There was a section which required me to write names of relatives who had voting cards in that circle. I put down my parents’ names. While looking over the form, the clerk said that since I was married I could not put my parents’ names as they were nothing to me now, only in laws were. Also, they asked me how is it that I had a different last name than my husband? He said that since I was married the only way I could apply for my card was to provide a photocopy of my husband’s card. I said he didn’t have one. He said that then I couldn’t get one. I got angry and asked him where in the law books does it say I can’t vote unless my husband has a voter’s card? This guy wouldn’t budge. Then my dad told me to wait for the officer to come and when he did, we spoke to him. He apologised and accepted my application form and called the clerk and told him that many girls didn’t change their names after marriage. The clerk was astounded.
This is how much patriarchal attitudes are entrenched in our society. Many men don’t understand as they don’t have to face it. Even though the law didn’t bar me from not changing my name or applying for a voter’s card, the clerk did. Now I just hope I get it.
In reply to Sraboney
The “culture” in this case is so strong that it spills into the law as well – either the letter of the law, or its implementation…
Instead of making mountains out of molehills, let us look at the real problem, crime against women is at its peak and the entire country watches helplessly.
What does it matter if a husband is called Ji-Tom or Raju or Moron, what matters is his character and how he treats his wife.
In reply to Sujata
Crimes against women are a function of how women are viewed and treated in general, don’t you think?
It’s interesting how people pick and choose what is convenient to them from ‘Indian culture’! I’m pretty confident that there is no requirement in the Vedas to not call your husband by his name etc, but then what do I know! This is similar to conservatives in the US howling against marriage among same-sex couples and abortion by quoting from the Bible!
I agree that Indian culture is a living, breathing thing. What was applicable centuries ago may not be so at all now; yet, some fundamental principles are worth keeping alive! The point is to have the choice what to follow and what not to.
In reply to Roshni
Actually now that I think of it, I believe I have read somewhere in some mythology text that a wife must use a respectful form of address for her husband. Somehow, I can’t imagine Sita calling her husband just “Ram”!
Case in point, I had gone to the post office to collect my daughters passport and they asked me for ID proof. The person looked at it and said your name is wrong get it corrected asap. When I asked what he means, he said my last name does not match with my husbands!! I was so livid that I gave their whole office a lecture on law and treating women as individuals in their own right and also threatened to file police complaint for harassment. Finally the supervisor came and calmed me down.. This happened more than 3 years ago, but the postmen are still scared of me..!!
Also, very recently the parent ID I got from my daughters school my husband’s surname printed on it. When I informed them about it, the woman looked really confused and said there is no mistake and then asked me “What difference does it really make?”. I finally had to meet the school co-ordinator and tell her that I dont want my daughter to go to a school that follows patriarcal value system and treats girls as secondary citizens. Thats when they apologised and agreed to change the name on the card.
I think that the people in the school hate me.. Hope this does not affect my daughter in anyway..
So I completely agree. We do need to murder this culture
In reply to Aturma
Wow, that really sucks. And here I thought people are slowly getting used to wives not having the same last name as their husbands…
In reply to bhagwad
I know!! And this happened in Mumbai. Can’t imagine what it’s like at other places in india
In reply to Aturma
I remember a very similar thing happened to Yog instructor Shamim Akhtar, when a courier boy landed up in her home at her Hiranandani complex home & refused to give her a letter that was her hubby’s, just because Shamim was not using her husband’s surname. It was reported in Mumbai Mirror. So your story did not come as a surprise to me. Sad, for me at least, but not surprising.
In reply to Aturma
Hats off to you Aturma for being so bold! We really need to change this sick mentality of people.
Well I don’t think we need to murder the culture. A country without a culture has no roots and anchor. But we definitely need to change the perception and the thought process of the people. I think we need another Raja Ram Mohan Roy now who can bring revolution to the society that once reformed Bengal during the renaissance period. In fact a lot has been changed in Bengal and the male members of most Bengali families are not shy to show their culinary art or dust the house while the wife is cooking. I myself am a firm believer of equality among men and women. If a woman can go out, work for the whole day that too at designations at par with men then why can’t men help them in the household chores. Maybe we (humans) are the only species who are dependent on others for getting our personal tasks done. From where does this ego comes “I am a man and I will not cook” If you can’t cook or help your wife who is equally tired after the long day’s tasks, then please stop feeling hungry as well.
So, in my opinion, its all about perception where we need to inculcate this habit in boys (men) from the childhood where the sister will not be asked to go and get water for her brother who is also studying with her. Why disturb the girl? Ask the boy to go and get water for himself. These small but very important habits make the foundation.
So nothing wrong with the culture, just a matter of opening the windows of our minds and let the new breeze of change freshen us up.
My humble request to you is know well before you criticize.. Don’t make such a loosy heading in future.. Do you really think woman calling her husband by their given name would make any difference in the status of women in society…?? And is this culture you think…? Working or giving up their job after marriage is based on their family situation and all.. That’s their individual decision and of course that’s not culture… I know many Indian men who even call young ones respectively.. Not only in India but world wide Indian women are in greater places and behind their success also men and their family.. From idhikash period Indian culture gave great respect to women.. Above all Indian culture worshipped women which never any other culture do.. Malechavinism is in all the part of the world its not only in India and it’s in human perception not in culture.. Of course some evils like dowry prevails in Indian society against women.. But you can’t generalize it as a Indian culture.. And not just Indian men only responsible for this customary practice like dowry. women also responsible for it.. And having family responsibilities and household works is not a slavery for women.. Most of the women do happily for their family.. And nature also blessed women with talent like multitasking.. I’m very proud to be a Indian woman and part of a Indian culture.. Before you make rubbish headings like this study well not only Indian culture but also all the cultures..