Two things strike me as the outrage over Jyoti’s assault and death bubble over in Delhi. First, the public now has the mileage to force the politicians to make some really important and long overdue changes. Second, this initiative is being completely wasted in useless knee jerk responses.
Forget the death penalty for rapists for god’s sake. It won’t work. Not because we want to be soft on crime but because there are too many issues that will actually make women’s situation worse. What is important is not the quantum of punishment, but the certainty of punishment. In a land where the police refuse to register even an FIR for cases of rape and try and “bring peace” between the rapist and the victim, what the hell is the use of a harsher end game penalty?
Sorry to say but the state of affairs goes well beyond rape. We need comprehensive police reforms that change the way the police force itself works. This is the only real way to improve things. In 2006, the Supreme Court recommended several police reforms that are desperately needed and that states need to implement. Things like ensuring the independence of the police force from the politicians. This is what’s needed. Not some stupid half chewed thoughts on torturing rapists or castrating them.
The judicial system also needs to be changed so that cases move quickly. These are big things, but public anger is at a boil right now. We have the momentum and power to change important things provided that outrage is channeled into something useful. Not mindless demands for bloodthirsty revenge.
Public anger and momentum is one of the few weapons we have today to enact meaningful reforms. If it’s squandered over trivialities it would be a tragic loss. At the very least we want the death of the poor girl to have some meaning. So please pass this on. Stop talking about harsher punishments etc and focus on police and judicial reforms. Demanding that the states implement the police reforms recommended by the SC will be a great first step. Then demand that vacant posts in the judiciary be filled. It’s a start and it’ll mean that Jyoti’s death wasn’t in vain.
Agree with you that judicial and police reforms must be top priority. But why not harsher punishments too ? Wouldn’t it be a deterrent if one knew that one would be put to death if one committed a certain crime ?
In reply to tp
The man will end up murdering the woman instead. I’d written about this years ago: http://www.bhagwad.com/blog/2010/politics/death-sentence-for-rape.html/
Why wouldnt he murder her if the penalty was life imprisonment ?
In reply to tp
He might. Which makes it even worse.
In reply to bhagwad
i dont understand the logic here.If you say that he might kill her either way then why not the death penalty; it would be a better deterrent
In reply to tp
Currently the minimum punishment is seven years. Not life.
In reply to bhagwad
so ? why not change it to life ? Not that i believe in taking life; but only as a more effective deterrent
In fact it would be dangerous to let him out after seven years. He would be so angry and, resentful that he would surely want to kill her
In reply to tp
Doesn’t matter – conviction in rape cases is so low that we have no data. Rapes occur because the culprit isn’t afraid of being punished at all – whether for seven years, or life, or death.
Increase the arrest rate, increase the conviction rate and then we’ll see. Otherwise it’s putting the cart before the horse.
In reply to bhagwad
‘ Increase the arrest rate, increase the conviction rate ” i agree. if i had been raped i wouldnt want the rapist to be set free – ever. i would have to live in fear of assault for the rest of my life. Life imprisonment is ideal
In reply to tp
I agree with tp. Rapists should never get the chance to rape again, (they’ll be the ones being raped in prison, get a taste of their own medicine). The rape victim never gets over their ordeal, their life is ruined, so why should the rapist get to have a life? Life in prison for the heinous crime of rape, death penalty if they murder their victim. Most criminals would rather be in prison for life than get the death penalty, so that would prevent them from murdering the victim.
In reply to lily
A rape victim’s “life is ruined” only because society doesn’t allow them to forget. We need to stop pandering to this notion that a woman’s life is worthless because she’s raped.
In reply to bhagwad
It should be understood that “life is ruined” isn’t always and/or only equivalent to “life is worthless” for a rape victim. Apart from how the society behaves, the trauma itself is responsible for severe physical and psychological disorders in the victim. PTSD is a very common example. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the society not allowing the victim to forget.
We need to enact the police reforms TRUE…our Indian police works as per the Police Act that was formed back in 1861,not to mention this act was made for the then British-India police system…but that system is no more in existence,situations have changed,problems have changed then why should we still sticketh to the old guidelines??
But it’s not going to happen in a blink…it is going to take time,what solution do we have untill then? What about the case s where there is no need of prolonged litigation to prove the charges and culprit is held guilty..do we let the criminals take benefit of the lacunae of our police system or judiciary and suffer the resentment?
why a victim of brutal rape has to suffer in vegetative state and the rapist get to live a normal life after such a heinous crime…the punishment in cases of such offences should not be less then life imprisonment…and capital punishment is utterly justified in sexual offences.
In reply to Anjali
How do you deal with the objections against capital punishment for rape?
As things stand today, the judicial process is always slow. If we speed that up, half our problems will be solved. But that’s again putting the cart before the horse. We need to make sure the police registers an FIR in the first place!
I don’t know about others, but I want a criminal arrested first. I don’t care about sentencing if the person is never even behind bars! That should be the priority.
In reply to bhagwad
Yes,there must be some information or nature of the accusation must be sufficient enough bring criminal law into motion..FIR is the very first information based upon which police starts the investigation,but we need to know what to do if police refuses to lodge an FIR..Sec 154(3) of the CrPC,1973 enables an aggrieved person to send the substance of information ,in writing or by post to the Superintendent of Police,in case the FIR was not lodged by the incharge.
As far as rape cases are concerned it is well settled in case of State of Maharastra v Suresh Nivrutti Bhusare that delay in the lodging of FIR is immaterial.
You want the criminals to be arrested,OK,in the case of Aruna Shanbagh the rapist was arrested,charges held and proved,found guilty..then what after that, few years of imprisonment thats it???!
The principle behind giving the punishment is not only to punish the culprit but also to make others aware of the consequences of their act…I wish all the offenders face death penalty or atleast are kept under strict solitary confinement for life long.
In reply to Anjali
Do you have any idea what life is like inside an Indian prison?
There is a difference between justice and revenge. Civilized jurisprudence is about reform as much as possible.
Also consider how rape is defined in India. Consensual sex between a 19 year old and a 16 year old is termed as statutory rape – do you suggest the person be given life imprisonment or death for that?
But let’s talk about the death penalty first. How do you deal with the objections I raised in my other post?
In reply to bhagwad
Under IPC,Rape is said to be committed when a man has sexual intercourse with a woman under circumstances;
1.against her will
2.without her consent.
3.with her consent which has been obtained by threat or coercion.
4.with her consent when the man knows that he is not her husband and the consent is given because she believes him to be his lawfully wedded husband.
5.with her consent,when it is obtained by reason of intoxication,or unsoundness of mind or she is unable to understand the nature and consequence of that to which she gives consent.
6.with or without her consent,when she is under 16 yrs of age.
I don’t think consensual sex lies under any of the above so its not even rape.
Civilized jurisprudence is about reform but the principle is also to stop offences of same nature to happen in future so strict punishment should not be taken as revenge..its justice!
And I don’t have any idea what life is inside a prison..i’ve never even been into detention in school days!!!
In reply to Anjali
It’s called statutory rape: http://www.hindu.com/mp/2006/05/20/stories/2006052000910200.htm and it’s very much a law in India.
Also, your suggestion of solitary confinement for life serves no purpose whatsoever other than torture. It’s simply unconscionable.
There are many levels of rape. Rape using drugs. Using weapons. Using blackmail. By government officials, gangrape, rape and murder, kidnapping and rape, rape of a minor etc. All of these need to have different punishment to reflect the increasing severity. You can’t just prescribe life imprisonment for everything – that’s not the way the law calibrates punishment.
In reply to bhagwad
your objection against death penalty;
1. The death sentence is for the rarest of the rare cases.
true..I find rape of an innocent child by a pervert as rarest of the rare case,even though it is not considered as such by the Judges,so I think execution is justified in such cases.
2. More women will be murdered.
I don’t know what makes you say so…a rapist murders the victim because he gets scared of the consequences of the act he has done…why not enroot the fear of the consequences right from pioneer stage?
3.What’s the sentence for even greater crimes?
there can’t be anything after execution…what else can we do after a person is hanged? You’ve mentioned about the Nithari case… after the charges were proved against koli he should have been hanged.A person like him doesn’t even deserves to live.
4.Do we want justice or revenge?
Ofcourse we want justice..if it was about revenge why would one go to follow the law and act in furtherance of legal methods?
5.No space for mistakes.
our judiciary already takes more than sufficient time to held someone guilty because everyone is innocent in the eyes of law till he is held guilty,there is hardly any chance of mistakes if one is loyal to his profession ..death sentence or no death sentence,the case already goes on for years..if even after years of litigation the culprit is punished with few years of imprisonment that is purely injustice.
In reply to Anjali
1. Rarest of the rare is a question of statistics, not opinion
2. Even murder does not carry the death penalty. Once a rape has been committed, murder is the logical consequence to prevent the woman from talking. There is no doubt that capital punishment for rape will result in more women being murdered.
Regardless of how some people feel, rape is not worse than death.
3. There are many crimes worse than rape. Those crimes need harsher punishments. You can’t just award the death penalty for everything.
4. If you want justice then you will realize that death is worse that rape – and you can’t award death for all rape cases.
5. As you point out, cases already drag on for years. Institute the death penalty and I guarantee you that every rape case will stretch for 20 years. No one awards the death penalty lightly and it will likely go all the way to the Supreme Court.
The death penalty for rape is the single worst solution to this problem. It looks like you don’t actually want to see anyone punished. Because trust me, that is exactly what will happen.
In reply to bhagwad
Rape maybe not worse than other crimes…but the social taboo attached to the victim of rape is much higher than any other offence…many of the cases are not even registered because it is done by some close relative or to prevent oneself from shame(although there is no reason to feel so)…you agree or not but the life of a rape victim can never remain same.
Regarding the rarest cases…I will see how the opinion changes if something similar happens to the law makers…forget about rape, I think even the hands that dares to eve tease on me should also be cut.
The cases where investigation goes on for years may take long term to decide…but the case where the culprit is obvious, should immediately be punished.
In reply to Anjali
Then the social taboo needs to be changed. That is exactly where the problem lies. The government cannot encourage backward thinking by pandering to them. The solution to that particular problem is feminism not harsher punishment.
Where the death penalty is concerned, the burden of proof is increased ten fold. The mere word of the victim is not sufficient. Women will be immeasurably harmed if the death penalty is instituted for rape. We will go from having 15% conviction to 1% – that too after decades. Is that what you want?
Ample evidence has shown that rapists in India are not afraid of even getting caught. They don’t look at the punishment and think “Oh, only death! Only life! Only 15 years!” I tell you this – even if the punishment is one year in jail implemented quickly but they are sure to be caught they will not do it!
You decide which is better.
In reply to bhagwad
I believe that the taboo will not exist for longer period.Every offender is afraid of being caught,if he were not afraid of being caught,he would never hide or destroy the evidence but he does so because he is afraid that he will be caught.The increase in no of rape cases shows that they are not afraid of the prescribed punishment..because they very well know that even if after arrest they will arrange a bail..and the defense will arrange min. punishment for them taking the advantage of lacunae of the law.
The offenders of the current case should definitely get death sentence,so that next time anybody may not consider the law crippled and is well aware about what degree of punishment shall be imposed on them too,if they try to do so.
In reply to Anjali
It may not seem like it, but the situation is actually improving – not getting worse. In the old days cases like this would never have gotten the attention and response that this one did. Rape reporting is increasing and this makes it seem like it’s getting worse.
In reality, the opposite is true. Greater liberalization and changing attitudes are decreasing the total amount of violence against women. It’ll take many years for it to have a real effect.
In reply to Anjali
it may seem to you that situation is improving…but it’s not so.Yes, this case got mass attention because we have media to cover everything now..but where is the justice?
mere public brawl and worldwide attention doesn’t means that situation has got “better”… it will improve only when strict laws are made in order to stop the rapes.
In reply to Anjali
But it wasn’t worse before was it?
In reply to bhagwad
talking about the consensual sex,yes,it’s rape if the girl is about 16 years of age,it’s clearly defined in IPC..one can’t claim for the justice in his favour saying that he was not “aware” of the law regarding rape..Ignorance of law is no excuse.
In reply to Anjali
So the guy deserves the death penalty or life imprisonment for that? That’s absurd!
And remember it’s only defined as rape for the guy. If the guy is 16 and the girl is also 16 it’s still considered rape! I’m sure you agree that is not fair no?
In reply to bhagwad
When we talk about rape the word that ultimately accompanies is “forced”…and that includes consent obtained by fraud too..the consensual sex with a girl of upto 16 years of age is considered rape because state wants to protect the innocence of the minor,which is appreciable,so if the minor knows that what he is doing is a serious offence he might not do it..this is what law about.
But, when I hear a man raping a girl of 5 yrs or a mentally challenged girl or even commits unnatural offences on a boy;he doesn’t deserves to live..not even a chance to reform.
In reply to Anjali
Why do you want to kill a teenaged girl for having sex with a 16 year old boy? Or perhaps the two of them can stare at each other across jail cells of the rest of their life.
Is that your idea of justice?
Sorry, but placing consensual sex between teenagers on the same level as forced rape is repugnant to me and extremely disrespectful to genuine victims of rape. Don’t trivialize the trauma by calling just about anything “rape”.
In reply to bhagwad
you yourself are discussing several “levels” of rape…but when it comes to punishment you stick to your classic “16 years old” theory…completely neglecting the seriousness of the offence when it is forced.
In reply to bhagwad
where did I say that I want to kill a teenager?
I don’t want to kill a teenage girl nor a teenage boy for having sex…I want a teenager to know the consequences of act they are doing..If they are aware of the fact that what they are doing also falls under the criminal offence of rape they may not do it.
In reply to Anjali
Let me get this straight – you’re saying that a teenager girl and boy should not be sentenced to life imprisonment for having sex?
I thought you said it was a valid case of rape and you favor life imprisonment/death/torture for such cases etc etc?
I’m confused. If you’re not advocating that, you can either:
1. Say that teenage sex is NOT rape
2. Agree that there are degrees of rape and not all of them deserve life imprisonment or death
One of these has to be true otherwise your logic makes no sense.
In reply to bhagwad
I don’t want to kill a teenage girl nor a teenage boy for having sex…I want a teenager to know the consequences of act they are doing..If they are aware of the fact that what they are doing also falls under the criminal offence of rape they may not do it.
In reply to Anjali
By the way, I think teenage sex should be perfectly legal. Who cares as long as it’s safe? But that’s besides the point. Legal or not, teenagers are going to do till the end of time and they’re not hurting anyone.
In reply to bhagwad
there are other important factors while deciding the case…two of the which are Intention and Motive…if there is no motive or intention to commit rape the case holds no gravity..so even if the teenager is charged with offence of rape…it will not be considered grave.
Since in other types of rape cases both mens rea and actus reus is present so considering the graveness of the offence harsh punishment is justified.
In reply to Anjali
So you agree that there is a gradation of punishment and not all cases deserve life imprisonment or death?
In reply to bhagwad
I hate to agree,but every rapist deserves death penalty or life imprisonment.
In reply to Anjali
You said that you didn’t want teenage girls and boys jailed for life for having consensual sex even though it’s technically rape.
So we don’t really have a disagreement at all :)
Either that, or stop calling consensual teenage sex as “rape”. Call it something else, but not that.
Finally of course, there is the gradation of punishment mentioned earlier. Even murder doesn’t always get life imprisonment.
How can rape be worse than murder?
In reply to bhagwad
there is actually no comparison b/w the two…both are serious offence against the body.
But being a girl I know how does it feels even when some bastard tries to touch me intentionally…I know what kind of hatred runs through my nerves when I see same thing happening to small girls,I can’t help but slap that person right into his face or threaten him with the sharp scalpel I carry in my dissection kit..so if this is my outrage after facing eve teasing, I can assume how a victim of rape must feel like.
While I am travelling alone I don’t have any fear that I will be murdered or face dacoits or whatever,but I am sure I don’t want to see those filthy creature play “JYOTI” with me or any other girl.
I want them dead on every cost ,not because I seek revenge or I’ve a bloodlust…but because I want to live freely.
Follow the link,maybe you will understand why I want rapist to die
http://anvi.heck.in/i-salute.xhtml
In reply to Anjali
Who’s Jyoti? Is it a movie?
In reply to bhagwad
oh God no…just verbified Jyoti..the pseudo/name you’ve mentioned.
No amount of police reforms can reform the police unless the people being recruited are fit to be a part of the police force. The policemen we have today have grown up in the same society with the same mindset. Ideally the police should not be under the influence of politicians. But making the police independent cannot ensure that it will be more efficient. There has to be another authority to check the police. Looking at the way many policemen abuse their power, it will be a horrible scenario if they have complete freedom. Who will police the police then?
As far as the debate on punishment of rapists and other sexual criminals, what can be a better deterrent? The possibility of getting convicted and having to spend the entire life behind bars or even being sentenced to death? Or the surety of arrest with the possibility of being set free anytime? And I don’t see the logic of justice for any such crime. If a rape victim is made to live her life in a vegetative state even if the culprit serves his sentence in jail and is then set free after being ‘reformed’, where is the justice in the story? I dont think anything called justice exists. Any amount of punishment to the culprit cannot undo the damage done to a victim. Removing the criminal from civilised society for ever is the only possible deterrent if the concept of deterrence does hold any weight.
In reply to Robin
Well if you’re disavowing the very concept of justice itself, then we might as well prescribe the death penalty for everything.
As for the police being independent, that doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want. Where did you get that idea from? They still have to operate within the law. And it’s not as if in the current situation the police are so very restrained by the politicians!
Also, where does the possibility of “being set free at any time” come up? Surety of punishment with several years in jail is a far bigger deterrent that a 5% chance of arrest and a 15% chance of life or death after that.
Besides as already stated before, the death penalty has many, many drawbacks. It’ll be interesting to see how you can overcome the points in that post.
In reply to Robin
By the way, your casual talk of solitary life confinement demonstrates your true intentions. It’s a form of psychological torture and doing it for life serves no other purpose other than satisfying your bloodlust.
Sorry – rapists may be animals, but we are not.
In reply to bhagwad
I cant understand why you are getting so worked up by what I said. I just voiced my opinion on a subject which you wrote about. Even if you felt that I disagreed with your views, how it affected you so much as to dwell on and speculate about my intentions is beyond me.
I didnt say death sentence should be the punishment always. If I did, please show me. I just believe that justice does not exist. At least in crimes other than those involving only money. Let alone murder, even if a person is physically attacked and injured in a crime, and the criminal is put into prison for the prescribed no. of years, how does it help the injured victim? In its present sense, justice is only about attempting to reform a criminal through punishment. Nowhere does it address the issue of the victim. So is punishment by law not just a sort of revenge to satisfy the victim simultaneously aiming to reform the criminal? Otherwise, how does an injured victim gets any benefit by the arrest of the accused?
And going by your logic, if imprisonment is torture, then no criminal should be arrested and imprisoned and should be let free with possible counselling sessions once in a while. Of course we are not animals, but we have brains, and so we dont just captivate aggressive animals for a specified period of time and release them to harm the society again.
In reply to Robin
That second comment was posted in this thread by mistake – my apologies. It was directed towards someone else who was prescribing solitary confinement for life.
In reply to bhagwad
but you were the one who considers human life none the less important than an insect…and you wanted to eradicate the crowd of humans which bothers you like you would do to swarm of insects…should I agree on the part that increase in no. of rapes or presence of those perverts doesn’t bothers you?
In reply to Anjali
This is more about long term consequences to our justice system. I won’t mind if the woman kills her rapist in the heat of the moment. I myself would do it and I even encourage it.
This is about the state killing people for purposes maintaining law and order. Two very different things.
In reply to bhagwad
if a woman kills her rapist you will encourage it…but if the state does the same on behalf of the victim and in furtherance with the law you take it as revenge…strange!
In reply to Anjali
Yes. The first is in self defense. The state doesn’t kill out of self defense or revenge.
They are two completely different things.
In reply to bhagwad
If my hands are bound by law and I can’t kill the offender myself,I would definitely want state to do so…either way I want all such creeps to vanish away from society.
In reply to Anjali
The law is not stopping you from killing your rapist in self defense. No one will send a woman to jail who does that.
But just because you want the state to kill them doesn’t mean the state has to grant your wish.
In reply to bhagwad
you seem to rotate around only one level of rapes…kindly consider other levels that you’ve mentioned…how a victim is supposed to act in self defense if she is say 6 years,or those done by public servants…you also seem to have statistics about everything…can you give the statistic about how many victims remain conscious after the molestation…if any victim can’t act in her self defense does she lose her right to get justice also?
In reply to Anjali
Umm…I didn’t say every woman is capable of killing her rapist. I said that IF she kills the rapist, the law would not punish her.
I’m unable to understand your point.
In reply to Anjali
If a woman kills her rapist during self defense she may not be liable of murder…but what if she can’t…why can’t she look upto the state to punish the rapist,because it’s the duty of state to protect her rights and integrity and to check law and order otherwise what’s the point of having laws?
In reply to Anjali
Of course the woman can look to the state to punish the rapist. But not with death.
TOI has reported today that an accused in a rape case within a few days of being released from prison has again raped and murdered a woman. Most of these rapists are mentally unbalanced and while some may reform in prison we cannot know who hasnt. So death penalty or life imprisonment must be the punishment .
In reply to tp
How is rape special in this regard? Even regular murder doesn’t carry the death penalty. Rape is not worse that murder. How do you explain the objections against the death penalty here?
Here is the article
http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Released-from-jail-man-rapes-kills-minor-girl/articleshow/18006228.cms
I said death penalty OR life imprisonment
In reply to tp
If you advocate life imprisonment for every single case of rape, how do you deal with more serious rape cases? Rape with weapons, rape of minors, rape by police officers, gang rape, rape and kidnapping?
There has to be a gradation of punishment from least severe to most severe. Blindly giving out one punishment for all rapes regardless of severity makes a mockery of the law.
Also keep in mind that in India, rape is defined very strangely. A 19 year old having consensual sex with a sixteen year old girl is called rape. A man promising to marry a woman, and then leaving her after consensual sex is also called “rape”.
One should be aware of all the consequences of one’s recommendations.
In reply to bhagwad
We are not talking about these kind of cases – obviously. This is a serious discussion about what punishment should be given to rapists ( as we all understand the term ). The judiciary will decide whether or not to give life imprisonment to cases such as mentioned by you and whether such cases even qualify to be considered to be classed as rape
In reply to tp
So if you agree that not all rape cases deserve life imprisonment and that punishment should proceed on a case by case basis, what is the disagreement?
There isnt any
I agree. The sentencing for rape is a deterrent even now. It’s the abysmal conviction rate that makes tips the risk/reward ratio for the prospective rapist. The public’s bloodthirstiness is no excuse for making sentences harsher. I personally am against the state killing people because we can never get every conviction right. I could sleep at night knowing the government funded by my taxes occasionally jails innocents for life, but knowing that the state routinely executes people in cold blood and that some of them might be innocent is something I’ll never recover from.
I too am tired of making the point that a death penalty for rapists will end up converting rapes into rape-murder combos. There’s no incentive for the rapist to let the woman go. In fact, he could mutilate the body such that we won’t even know the rape happened.
People need to consider the consequences of legislation along with their intentions.
Nice post.