Two reasons why Muthalik’s pub attack deserved so much outrage

In my attempts to engage those who hold differing opinions, I understood one very important issue. A large number of people feel that violence by Hindu organizations gets much more attention from the media and societies than violence by Islamic elements.

The latest incident of Islamic fanatics chopping off the hand of a person has catalyzed this debate. Lots of people feel that not enough people are getting upset over it as opposed to the outrage following Pramod Muthalik’s infamous pub attack. Here was one comment on the net:

“How did we come to this pass where this class places higher priority over distributing panties to a third-rate, & small-time wannabe politician over being watchful about the more real dangers that it faces?”

So is this allegation true? Did we indeed make a greater outcry over Muthalik’s pub raiding incident than we are doing over the hand chopping incident in Kerala?

Picture Credit: Manishwa.com

Muthalik in Pink Chaddis

Muthalik in Pink Chaddis - Courtesy Manishwa

The answer is “yes.” We did. But it’s not because we’re trying to “pacify Muslims”, “demonize Hindu culture”, or are being manipulated by the media or politicians. There are two reasons why there was greater outrage over Muthalik.

The first is that Muthalik blatantly and openly went after all women who “offended Hindu culture.” In other words, he was moralizing to the whole country – sending out a message that no one was safe who dared go against his personal little outlook – and he was entitled to his actions. The hand choppers attacked a specific person. In reality, this too is a way of threatening everyone, but they weren’t so damn blatant about it. They didn’t stand in front of media people and proclaim their bigotry to the whole world. Muthalik on the other hand gave press statements claiming to be the moral voice of the country. By doing that he obviously pissed people off a lot more than crazy fanatics who hurried through a gruesome act.

Also, Muthalik’s violence was against women specifically. It was a double outrage. Not just against pubbing, drinking and dressing, but against women specifically. I mean what the hell?

In other words, the hand choppers inspired fear. Muthalik inspired outrage. Imagine for a moment that after chopping off this poor Professor’s hand, the culprits had waited for media people and with a smug look boldly told the whole country that they would come for every Christian, Hindu, or Atheist who dared insult Mohammed. Does anyone think we would have kept quiet? The outrage would have been 10 times worse than what we released on Muthalik.

The second reason is that Muthalik and his type are politicians. Violence is bad enough without having the sanction of those who are trying to be in power. Because of this, Muthalik was a much more dangerous threat. If he ever gets a chance to wield actual power, he has the ability to impose his idiocy on all of us! Naturally he’s a much bigger threat. And this is a justified fear since he was even caught on tape offering to start riots for a price.

The difference between Muthalik and the hand choppers is like the difference between the Mafia and regular thieves. The Mafia is organized, runs businesses, and is more systemic and entrenched. Regular thieves are dangerous, but can’t do much worse than steal. We naturally hate the Mafia more than normal thieves!

I hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding for those who feel that we only focus on Hindu violence and Muslim violence. We’re not ignoring any violence, but we focus on that which has the capacity to do much more damage.

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Comments

  1. @Senthil

    There you go! We are back to "seduction". Please could you clarify your understanding of seduction and why you are so opposed to it? Because if there's no seduction, there's no human race!

    And your likening of me to taliban on the grounds you have provided is simply laughable. You clearly don't understand that there's no conflict between individual rights and society, family and so on! Importance to society and family doesn't mean trampling of individual rights! I am sure most people in their right minds would agree with that!

    You are right. It's a futile debate because you have no idea of what you are talking about. End of comments from me on this topic.

    Thanks Bhagwad for a good article.

    Cheers!
    AD

    Reply

  2. @AD

    /** 1) “This is like saying, that if some one seduces a woman, it is up to the woman to respond or not..”

    Yes. That’s right. It should be up to the woman to decide whether or not to respond to such advances. By the way, I hope you talking about seduction and not eve-teasing; these two are very different!
    ***/

    So, as per your statement, any one in the society, can try seducing any girl or women, by employing any means.. the girls had to defend themselves.. so if any guy successfully seduces the girl, uses her, and then ditches, its the fault of the girl..

    I could not believe, people can even think like this..

    /** Yes. It’s the parents’ duty to tell their children to be careful in life. Sex is a fact of life and whether you like or not, children WILL have sex. It’s better to tell them to be careful than telling them not to have sex at all because that’s simply impossible to achieve!
    **/

    NO comments.. the middle class dont want a situation, where children will be lured to have sex.. the middle class and lower class, want to have a social environment to prevent these kind of situations.. they want a school, which teaches these values.. they want colleges which imparts the values they believe.. they want the society, where children dont have the chances to do what they believe is wrong..

    Their values are rejected by people like you… and people have to depend on people like muthaliks, to safegaurd themselves..

    Actually, if the common sense prevails, the opinion of the common people in mangalore should have been sought, and acted accordingly..

    /** That’s YOUR opinion and you are absolutely free to hold that opinion. But you also have to accept that others don’t share this opinion and you have to give them equal amount of freedom to hold their own opinions.
    **/

    but majority of people hold this opinion that drinking, pubs and discothes are social evils.. in the name of freedom, you cannot impose this on the society..

    /** Listen my friend, no one’s out there to “lure” anyone into doing “immoral things”, if you consider drinking alcohol or having sex immoral in the first place! And even if someone feels the “need to save these girls from being lured”, bashing them up is hardly the way to go about it! Don’t you think?
    **/

    You might have recently heard about “love Jihad”.. the daughter of a communist politician is being lured and they forcibly saved their daughter.. the luring is there, and young girls become prey to these.. and we have so many incidents, where girls are trafficked to prostitution through this means.. please acknowledge this..

    Bashing up the girls is wrong.. muthalik has apologised for that.. but the pub has to be closed.. and discothe should not be allowed to open, if majority of the people opposes..

    The freedom to save a culture, is more important than the freedom to throw away the culture..

    Reply

    • In reply to senthil

      “So, as per your statement, any one in the society, can try seducing any girl or women, by employing any means.. the girls had to defend themselves”

      Yes. Exactly. As long as it’s not a physical assault and the girl is an adult, it’s her life. With freedom comes responsibility. That’s the way this country works.

      “the middle class dont want a situation, where children will be lured to have sex”

      Who is this middle class? I am also middle class. What gives you the right to speak for me?

      “and people have to depend on people like muthaliks, to safegaurd themselves”

      You have the right to only safeguard yourself from physical or financial harm. No other “harm” is valid.

      “but majority of people hold this opinion that drinking, pubs and discothes are social evils”

      Proof please? Also, just because the majority wants something doesn’t mean they will get it. It’s not a mobocracy. It’s a democracy. And the Constitution is more important than anything else.

      Remember how the Delhi HC decriminalized homosexuality? There too the “majority” didn’t want it. But they had to accept the Constitution. That’s the way India works.

      The freedom to save a culture, is more important than the freedom to throw away the culture..

      You can save your culture for yourself. Don’t tell others what culture to follow.

      Reply

      • In reply to bhagwad

        /** Yes. Exactly. As long as it’s not a physical assault and the girl is an adult, it’s her life. With freedom comes responsibility. That’s the way this country works.
        **/

        No sane people will accept the freedom to seduce that you are advocating for.. responsibility never comes in pub or discothe my friend.. responsibility comes through accountability, through respecting social values and through good behaviour..

        In US, the land of unlimited freedom, the number of rape cases is more than india’s.. so please introspect yourself..

        /** Who is this middle class? I am also middle class. What gives you the right to speak for me? **/

        I am also middle class.. i have right to speak for myself.. and its not just middle class.. Even lower class and part of higher class wants to have social values.. Please come out of the attitude, that only people at metros and cities are the india.. they are only micro minority. the majority of india still resides in rural india..

        /** “but majority of people hold this opinion that drinking, pubs and discothes are social evils”

        Proof please? Also, just because the majority wants something doesn’t mean they will get it. It’s not a mobocracy. It’s a democracy. And the Constitution is more important than anything else.
        **/

        As said above, majority of india still resides in village and small towns.. metros and cities are NOT the only india..

        its the secular and liberal mobs, which is shouting at all other people.. yes.. this mobocracy should be stopped..

        It is democratic principle, where a decision is arrived based on majority votes.. btw, constitution is NOT a religion perse.. between, constitution doesnt give any one right to seduce others..

        /** The freedom to save a culture, is more important than the freedom to throw away the culture..

        You can save your culture for yourself. Don’t tell others what culture to follow.
        **/

        Exactly.. we never care about what you follow or what you do.. we ask you, dont do all those nasty things among people who dont like that.. and we want to save our culture from people like you..

        Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        If a woman asks you for protection, then by all means it’s between the two of you. But if an adult woman wants to do what she wants with her life, who are you to stop her? Are you her guardian? By what right?

        You have the right only to speak for yourself. If you don’t want to go to a pub, don’t go! What is your problem here exactly?

        “responsibility comes through accountability, through respecting social values and through good behaviour”

        Who defines “social values?” Who defines “good behavior?” Some crazy mullah will say that good behavior means that girls should stay at home and make babies. Should we listen?

        Reply

      • In reply to bhagwad

        /** You have the right only to speak for yourself. If you don’t want to go to a pub, don’t go! What is your problem here exactly?
        **/

        you are not attacked by muthalik.. right? you are not prevented from going to pub by muthalik.. right.. so why dont you just look after yourself.. let those girls affected speak for themselves..

        Issue settled..

        If you feel, you have right to speak for those girls affected by muthalik, then i have the right to speak for those majority who dont want pub itself..

        Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        If I was to go and bash up Muthalik, then you have a point. Otherwise, I have the freedom to criticize.

        You also have the freedom to criticize. I may not agree with you, but you have that right. My problem with Muthalik is that he didn’t criticize. He used physical violence.

        Physical violence is not acceptable. Let him sing a song or something if he wants to object.

        Reply

  3. @Senthil

    I guess you would be more happy in a Taliban-controlled country. Or perhaps Saudi Arabia! Fortunately, contrary to what you suggest, a majority of India doesn’t share your beliefs.

    I think this should be the end of the discussion here. Let’s leave it to the readers to decide what idea of India they would like to live in – your’s or mine!

    Good evening!
    AD

    Reply

  4. @AD..

    I am convinced, that there is nothing difference b/w taliban and the so called liberals.. i would better name it as secular and liberty talibans..

    fine.. end of discussion here.. and i am sure, people will note your point, that any guy can attempt to seduce any girl he want..

    Reply

    • In reply to senthil

      You’re right. The difference only lies in what is fought for.

      The Taliban fight for their restrictive laws. We fight for freedom.

      Reply

      • In reply to bhagwad

        yes.. every one thinks, they are fighting for freedom.. the taliban fights for freedom to impose islam… and you people are fighting for freedom for imposing obscene and immoral values on the society..

        No difference..

        Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        But how am I imposing it? Am I forcing you to go to a pub? If not, how can you call it imposition?

        Reply

      • In reply to bhagwad

        but you are forcing pubs & discothe in my location, which majority of the people dont want..

        Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        If people don't want it, the pub will close down for lack of business.

        Also, you don't own the locality. The pub owner bought it legally. You need not go inside. If they built it in your house, then you have a case. Otherwise no.

        Reply

      • In reply to bhagwad

        /** If people don’t want it, the pub will close down for lack of business. **/

        You have now come to the main point. because there is lack of business, the pub owners are luring youngsters..

        /** Also, you don’t own the locality. The pub owner bought it legally. You need not go inside. If they built it in your house, then you have a case. Otherwise no.
        **/

        There is a collective ownership of the locality.. and i am stressing.. if majority people dont want, the pub cannot be forced upon..

        Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        the pub owners are luring youngsters..

        If they are not adults, the parents have every legal right to stop them. If they're adults, then it's their choice no?

        There is a collective ownership of the locality

        This is plain wrong. There is no such collective ownership. What is your proof for this statement?

        Reply

  5. @Senthil

    Why are you so stuck on women and pubs?

    Btw, if you do sufficient research, the Hindu culture that you are so desperate to “save” didn’t have any problem with either drinking or sexual lives of men and women. These restrictions came in far later with the Arab invasions in the 11th/12th century. So what you are essentially trying to defend is not Hinduism but Islam’s influence on Hinduism.

    Try to see the point Senthil. Stop for a moment and think about it.

    Reply

  6. /** No I am not! I am not worrying about anyone else but myself! I am fighting to defend my freedom! And defend it from those who are adamant on forcing their twisted “way of life” on me.

    You may have valid reasons to hold your opinions Senthil but you need to accept that others too have their own reasons for their own opinions and you need not force yours on them.
    **/

    No one came and beat you.. no one stopped you from going to pubs.. so you need not worry about muthaliks.. let those affected girls take care of themselves..

    As i said, if you dont believe in existence of society, its up to you.. if you dont believe, that a society has common values its up to you.. but the reality is that so many people has common values and form a society..

    If you dont understand anything other than individual rights, then please stop advising others.. Individual rights comes only after individual duty, individual responsibility and individual accountability..

    Reply

  7. @Senthil

    What you have expressed in your comments above is quite easy to understand, but is not consistent with any kind of democracy or any kind of free society. Let me summarise your postulations:

    1. There are cultural norms and rules which are absolute, and apply to everybody;
    2. These are determined by whether or not a majority respects them and wants them;
    3. Any minority which wants to observe a different set of norms and rules is not free to do so, because it is the majority’s views that prevail;
    4. The majority that determines these rules happens to be the religious and cultural majority in the country, and within that, the socially-conservative sub-set;
    5. In line with their beliefs, pubs, discos and dance clubs – any social association that is associated with culture from elsewhere, in other words – is equivalent to a brothel (this is implied, since you have clubbed them together in several places);
    6. All women who go to pubs, discos and clubs are vulnerable to sexual seduction, and all men who go to these know that women who come to these do so to be seduced;
    7. Pubs, discos and clubs must be shut down whether or not they comply with the law, because they don’t comply with the religious majority and the socially conservative sub-set within that; the law of the land no longer matters, the views of the chosen outweighs any legal issue;
    8. Women who go to these must be beaten up for their own good, to prevent them from being seduced;
    9. They do not have the choice of being seduced, or of seducing men, as they are not equal to men, OR as they do not realise the consequences of what they are doing;
    10. There may be parents who wish to give their children independence, but such parents don’t count; their children don’t count anyway, being children of somebody, and therefore perpetually immature and unfit to take decisions;
    11. There may be parents or mature people who choose their own freedom over their own minds and bodies, but they should not be allowed such freedom, as it clashes with the views of the religious majority, and the subset within, the socially conservative segment;
    12. Senthil is the person who knows what this subset of the majority really wants, and is entitled and authorised to articulate this want.

    Does this reflect your views, or is it an exaggeration? If it is an exaggeration, either can you disprove it or prove it an exaggeration by a citation from your own words, or may we prove that these points reflect your views by citing your words?

    Have you ever either had to move against pubs, discos and clubs, or is all this your only response to the matter?

    Have you ever had a near and dear one exposed to harrassment and threat by the factions that you seem to be so fond of?

    If you found a pub opening next door, would you oppose it?

    If you got arrested and bound to hold the peace by a magistrate, are your views strong enough to make you break the peace to make your point?

    Have you ever stood for election? Even in a college or school election?

    I am curious to know what your reactions to this are.

    Reply

    • In reply to Vajra

      Thanks for the detailed response Vajra. I think it's fairly accurate. Of course, we shouldn't assume this is exactly what is being conveyed, but when he responds we can find out if this is what he means…

      Reply

    • In reply to Vajra

      @Vajra

      /** What you have expressed in your comments above is quite easy to understand, but is not consistent with any kind of democracy or any kind of free society.
      **/

      Do you really understand, what is meant by democracy?

      /** 1. There are cultural norms and rules which are absolute, and apply to everybody; **/

      I never said like this.. india has thousands of communities each having their own culture.. there are NO uniform cultural norms.. what i am asking people like you is “Dont impose your culture upon them”..
      For eg, an area which has major hindu population, considers killing cow as sin.. you cannot go and establish a slaughter house, in the name of individual rights..

      /** 2. These are determined by whether or not a majority respects them and wants them; **/

      There is no nationwide majority in india.. every region is unique.. Metros like Delhi is highly westernised.. and no one objects pubs there in delhi.. its their culture.. but mangalore definitely is NOT.. Try to respect the sensitivities of the local people.. you have unlimited rights only within your house..

      /** 3. Any minority which wants to observe a different set of norms and rules is not free to do so, because it is the majority’s views that prevail;
      **/

      As long as it does not spoil the environment, the minority always have their own right.. There is a saying.. your freedom exists only up to the other man’s tip of nose..

      /** 4. The majority that determines these rules happens to be the religious and cultural majority in the country, and within that, the socially-conservative sub-set;
      **/

      There is no religious hindu majority here.. neither cultural majority.. and there is no centralised authority in hinduism to set rules.. hindus are NOT bound by any holy book rules..

      /** 5. In line with their beliefs, pubs, discos and dance clubs – any social association that is associated with culture from elsewhere, in other words – is equivalent to a brothel (this is implied, since you have clubbed them together in several places);
      **/

      Its not just belief.. its a contradiction of social values.. as i said earlier, people dont want within their region.. they dont care, if its in delhi or any other metros..

      In my personal opinion, pubs and discos are equivalent of brothels.. that’s a different case to argue..

      /** 6. All women who go to pubs, discos and clubs are vulnerable to sexual seduction, and all men who go to these know that women who come to these do so to be seduced;
      **/

      I cannot comment about all women in pubs. & discothes. but all girls new to pubs and discothes are highly vulnerable to sexual seduction, because they are lured there only for that? Otherwise, for what people are going there? TO pray?

      /** 7. Pubs, discos and clubs must be shut down whether or not they comply with the law, because they don’t comply with the religious majority and the socially conservative sub-set within that; the law of the land no longer matters, the views of the chosen outweighs any legal issue;
      **/

      the law of the land is decided by majority.. again thats a different thing.. Law is an ass in many circumstances.. so i want to discuss based on human conscience..

      As i said earlier, there is no religious majority here in india.. its official myth and a misnomer.. again, its a different case to debate..

      The normal people are NOT arguing for nationwide uniform law against pubs .. what they want is that they dont want these within their region.. you can keep it in delhi or any where else where you dont find any opposition..

      /** 8. Women who go to these must be beaten up for their own good, to prevent them from being seduced;
      **/
      I never said that.. Even muthalik himself apologised for beating women.. but government should NOT have allowed the pubs in that place, amidst people’s opposition..

      /** 9. They do not have the choice of being seduced, or of seducing men, as they are not equal to men, OR as they do not realise the consequences of what they are doing;
      **/
      Seduction is NOT a choice.. i said it many times.. Seduction is NOt an individual right.. humans are always susceptible to temptations or luring, and they are lost to their senses.. It may not be a problem for those people like you, who do not believe in chastity.. but its a problem for majority of normal indians, who believe in chastity and who wants their children to be good and properly settle in a peaceful family life..

      Its easy to live without any values.. but a culture needs a common value followed , where one generation trains the next generation with these values..

      /** 10. There may be parents who wish to give their children independence, but such parents don’t count; their children don’t count anyway, being children of somebody, and therefore perpetually immature and unfit to take decisions;
      **/

      There is no unlimited independance.. few parents may allow their children to go astray as they wish.. but majority of parents believe their children to be brought up in an environment with values they have themselves followed..

      No parent opposes when children take decision responsibly..

      /** 11. There may be parents or mature people who choose their own freedom over their own minds and bodies, but they should not be allowed such freedom, as it clashes with the views of the religious majority, and the subset within, the socially conservative segment;
      **/

      See.. dont think that those who are going to pub have freedom.. and also dont think, that all youths of india are craving for pubs and it is parents who dont allow

      Freedom has value in being responsible.. and NOT in becoming slave to one’s own desires and temptations..

      There is no unlimited freedom.. Freedom do have a cost and boundary.. this boundary varies from community to communty and region to region..

      /** 12. Senthil is the person who knows what this subset of the majority really wants, and is entitled and authorised to articulate this want.

      **/

      Yes.. because i come from that subset of so called majority.. i live among those people, interact with them and understand what values they have and what they want.. and i find that the micro minority of those adopt western values occupy key positions in media is deciding everything for whole india..

      /** Have you ever had a near and dear one exposed to harrassment and threat by the factions that you seem to be so fond of?
      **/

      i bet, You dont what harassment really is..

      /** If you found a pub opening next door, would you oppose it? **/

      Definitely.. i would do everything possible to NOT allow it..

      Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        /** What you have expressed in your comments above is quite easy to understand, but is not consistent with any kind of democracy or any kind of free society.
        **/
        /*Do you really understand, what is meant by democracy?*/

        If I didn’t, why would I be asking you? That is a tactic known as answering a difficult question by asking a question back.
        For your information, in response to your attempt to dodge an answer, I studied Political Science in college; I very well know what a democracy is, in technical terms, and in terms of its variations, and can teach it too.
        So what about answering the question, instead of asking a question back?

        /** 1. There are cultural norms and rules which are absolute, and apply to everybody; **/
        /*I never said like this.. india has thousands of communities each having their own culture.. there are NO uniform cultural norms.. what i am asking people like you is “Dont impose your culture upon them”..
        For eg, an area which has major hindu population, considers killing cow as sin.. you cannot go and establish a slaughter house, in the name of individual rights..*/

        But that is what you have argued, throughout all your points. If people have a culture which allows them to go to pubs, why are you forcing them to stay at home?

        /** 2. These are determined by whether or not a majority respects them and wants them; **/
        /* There is no nationwide majority in india.. every region is unique.. Metros like Delhi is highly westernised.. and no one objects pubs there in delhi.. its their culture.. but mangalore definitely is NOT.. Try to respect the sensitivities of the local people.. you have unlimited rights only within your house..*/

        Mangalore is a westernized place as much as any other, except for its Hindutva element, which is of recent origin, and initiated by the eight Udupi temples. They are far more pub-compatible than many parts of Bangalore.
        Have you actually been to Mangalore yourself? Am I right in saying that unlike me, you are speaking from second-hand knowledge and have never been to Mangalore in your life?

        /** 3. Any minority which wants to observe a different set of norms and rules is not free to do so, because it is the majority’s views that prevail;
        **/
        /*As long as it does not spoil the environment, the minority always have their own right.. There is a saying.. your freedom exists only up to the other man’s tip of nose..*/

        Then if I open a pub outside the private space of any other citizen, within the laws of the land, with the consent of the municipality, the Excise Department and the police, why should anyone object?

        /** 4. The majority that determines these rules happens to be the religious and cultural majority in the country, and within that, the socially-conservative sub-set;
        **/
        /*There is no religious hindu majority here.. neither cultural majority.. and there is no centralised authority in hinduism to set rules.. hindus are NOT bound by any holy book rules..*/

        Then which majority is it that you are quoting against pubs? What group do you belong to that gives you the authority to decide for others?

        /** 5. In line with their beliefs, pubs, discos and dance clubs – any social association that is associated with culture from elsewhere, in other words – is equivalent to a brothel (this is implied, since you have clubbed them together in several places);
        **/
        /*Its not just belief.. its a contradiction of social values.. as i said earlier, people dont want within their region.. they dont care, if its in delhi or any other metros..
        In my personal opinion, pubs and discos are equivalent of brothels.. that’s a different case to argue..*/

        Whose social values are being contradicted? Can you define them? Is it an anonymous mass?

        Is it that all regions outside Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkata are not places where people want pubs? How do you know? Have you any source of knowing this?

        Have you any proof that (in the North) Ludhiana, Amritsar, Chandigarh, Patiala, Gurgaon, Faridabad, Agra, Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad, (in the East) Patna, Ranchi, Dhanbad, Jamshedpur, Siliguri, Darjeeling, Burdwan, Guwahati, Tezpur, Jorhat, Shillong, Itanagar, Kohima, Manipur, Agartala, Aizawl, Bhubaneswar, Cuttack, Puri (in the West) Jaipur, Jodhpur, Udaipur, Alwar, Kotah, Pune, Satara (in the Centre) Bhopal, Sagar, Gwalior, Indore (in the South) Hyderabad, Visakhapatnam, Vijaywada, Trichy, Pondicherry, Madurai, Tuticorin, Coimbatore, Kodaikanal, Trivandrum, Kochi, Cannanore, Mysore, Mercara, Ooty, Coonoor, Belgaum all do not want clubs, pubs or discos?

        Do you know which of these places listed have a common drinking culture, where men and women habitually have a drink together in licensed drinking houses, as part of their popular culture?

        Is it going to be your personal opinion that determines the laws of the land? What happened to the majority?

        /** 6. All women who go to pubs, discos and clubs are vulnerable to sexual seduction,
        and all men who go to these know that women who come to these do so to be seduced;
        **/
        /*I cannot comment about all women in pubs. & discothes. but all girls new to pubs and discothes are highly vulnerable to sexual seduction, because they are lured there only for that? Otherwise, for what people are going there? TO pray?*/

        You keep talking of girls being lured there. Have you any experience of this, or any proof? Do girls go there who are not lured?

        And does it ever occur to you that people go there to be in the company of their friends, perhaps all friends of the same sex, and relax over a drink and something to eat, and good music? Why is it that to you, the only reason to go to a pub must be sexual in some manner?

        It may be that no one ever invited you, and that no girl or young woman has spoken to you. Is that what the trouble is, and is that why you are so angry? Out of envy and hatred of something you can’t be part of?

        Could I ask you, have you ever drunk alcohol?

        /** 7. Pubs, discos and clubs must be shut down whether or not they comply with the law, because they don’t comply with the religious majority and the socially conservative sub-set within that; the law of the land no longer matters, the views of the chosen outweighs any legal issue;
        **/

        /*the law of the land is decided by majority.. again thats a different thing.. Law is an ass in many circumstances.. so i want to discuss based on human conscience..
        As i said earlier, there is no religious majority here in india.. its official myth and a misnomer.. again, its a different case to debate..

        The normal people are NOT arguing for nationwide uniform law against pubs .. what they want is that they dont want these within their region.. you can keep it in delhi or any where else where you dont find any opposition..*/

        First the majority, now it is human conscience. Now if nine people have consciences that say pubs should be allowed, and one has a conscience which is different, who should prevail?

        How do you know that pubs are opposed in Mangalore? Where are those people coming from who were in that attacked pub, other than Mangalore?

        /** 8. Women who go to these must be beaten up for their own good, to prevent them from being seduced;
        **/
        /*I never said that.. Even muthalik himself apologised for beating women.. but government should NOT have allowed the pubs in that place, amidst people’s opposition..*/

        Why did Muthalik’s goons then threaten people in Bangalore, in exactly the same way, accosting young women in their 20s and 30s, not girls, as they came out and abusing and insulting them? Are you aware that the law describes verbal assault as ‘assault’, and physical assault is classified as ‘battery’? Are you aware that the pub in question was not opposed by anyone, because it was not in a residential area to begin with? Are you aware that Muthalik’s men were moving from apartment to apartment, crowding into people’s flats, and asking them whether they supported their activities or not? Are you aware of this campaign of intimidation in Bangalore (not in Mangalore) which finally led to a court binding order on Muthalik? Are you even aware of all this?

        /** 9. They do not have the choice of being seduced, or of seducing men, as they are not equal to men, OR as they do not realise the consequences of what they are doing;
        **/
        /*Seduction is NOT a choice.. i said it many times.. Seduction is NOt an individual right.. humans are always susceptible to temptations or luring, and they are lost to their senses.. It may not be a problem for those people like you, who do not believe in chastity.. but its a problem for majority of normal indians, who believe in chastity and who wants their children to be good and properly settle in a peaceful family life..
        Its easy to live without any values.. but a culture needs a common value followed , where one generation trains the next generation with these values..*/

        It is you who defined it as seduction, as you obviously believe that men and women are not equal. Could I ask you a series of questions on that issue, to prove that you are biased against women?

        It is not a question of chastity, it is a question of values. Why do you assume that your individual values must be the norm for everybody else? Here you speak of a majority, earlier you said that a majority might not be available, so human conscience should be the criterion, which is your point of view? Would you be surprised if a majority of parents asked were to say that you or any third person should not set rules for their children, over and above what they themselves think fit to set?

        /** 10. There may be parents who wish to give their children independence, but such parents don’t count; their children don’t count anyway, being children of somebody, and therefore perpetually immature and unfit to take decisions;
        **/
        /*There is no unlimited independance.. few parents may allow their children to go astray as they wish.. but majority of parents believe their children to be brought up in an environment with values they have themselves followed..
        No parent opposes when children take decision responsibly.*/

        First please define child. Is a person of 21 a child or an adult? Is such a person entitled to take decisions for herself or not? Is such a person to be considered a dependent on her parents, even if she is working and her income is the main income for the family?

        And please let us know, how old are you?

        Second, please explain who informed you that the people of over 21 (a criterion for entry into pubs and some discos) had not taken responsible decisions? How do you know that?

        /** 11. There may be parents or mature people who choose their own freedom over their own minds and bodies, but they should not be allowed such freedom, as it clashes with the views of the religious majority, and the subset within, the socially conservative segment;
        **/
        /*See.. dont think that those who are going to pub have freedom.. and also dont think, that all youths of india are craving for pubs and it is parents who dont allow
        Freedom has value in being responsible.. and NOT in becoming slave to one’s own desires and temptations..
        There is no unlimited freedom.. Freedom do have a cost and boundary.. this boundary varies from community to communty and region to region../*

        It is not a question of freedom being equated to going to a pub. Freedom is the choice to either go to a pub or stay away. How can you take freedom away from people by deciding for them that they should not go? Even if the law permits, even if the majority agrees, even if they are independent and earning, why should your choice be their choice?

        How can your community’s definition of boundaries restrict people from other communities? How can your region’s definition of boundaries restrict people from other regions? How can you, for instance, determine what Mangaloreans should or should not do? You are not Mangalorean. You are not Bunt or Tulu-speaking. You are not Christian.

        Or are you?

        /** 12. Senthil is the person who knows what this subset of the majority really wants, and is entitled and authorised to articulate this want.
        **/
        /*Yes.. because i come from that subset of so called majority.. i live among those people, interact with them and understand what values they have and what they want.. and i find that the micro minority of those adopt western values occupy key positions in media is deciding everything for whole india..*/

        Ah, the mysterious majority again. And the subset, which you denied existed only a few lines ago. So your religious group and your conservative subset within that group should be obeyed by everybody else because they are the majority? What about the Christians, including Mangalore Christians, who find nothing wrong with drinking and dancing, although they are as conservative as any other community in all other matters? How do you explain their position? Or do you think that they too are the micro minority of those who adopt western values?

        /** Have you ever had a near and dear one exposed to harrassment and threat by the factions that you seem to be so fond of?
        **/
        /*i bet, You dont what harassment really is..*/

        You lose.

        I do, exactly and precisely.

        Why don’t you answer my question?

        /** If you found a pub opening next door, would you oppose it? **/
        Definitely.. i would do everything possible to NOT allow it..

        Even if a majority around you were to be for it? Is it majority now, or conscience?

        In separate posts, I shall ask you why you did not answer certain questions I asked you, and what the significance of those omissions was. I shall also answer your scandalous remarks of your other post. Meanwhile, please try to give proper and honest answers, without dodging and turning and twisting.

        Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        /** What you have expressed in your comments above is quite easy to understand, but is not consistent with any kind of democracy or any kind of free society.
        **/
        /*Do you really understand, what is meant by democracy?*/

        If I didn’t, why would I be asking you? That is a tactic known as answering a difficult question by asking a question back.
        For your information, in response to your attempt to dodge an answer, I studied Political Science in college; I very well know what a democracy is, in technical terms, and in terms of its variations, and can teach it too.
        So what about answering the question, instead of asking a question back?

        /** 1. There are cultural norms and rules which are absolute, and apply to everybody; **/
        /*I never said like this.. india has thousands of communities each having their own culture.. there are NO uniform cultural norms.. what i am asking people like you is “Dont impose your culture upon them”..
        For eg, an area which has major hindu population, considers killing cow as sin.. you cannot go and establish a slaughter house, in the name of individual rights..*/

        But that is what you have argued, throughout all your points. If people have a culture which allows them to go to pubs, why are you forcing them to stay at home?

        /** 2. These are determined by whether or not a majority respects them and wants them; **/
        /* There is no nationwide majority in india.. every region is unique.. Metros like Delhi is highly westernised.. and no one objects pubs there in delhi.. its their culture.. but mangalore definitely is NOT.. Try to respect the sensitivities of the local people.. you have unlimited rights only within your house..*/

        Mangalore is a westernized place as much as any other, except for its Hindutva element, which is of recent origin, and initiated by the eight Udupi temples. They are far more pub-compatible than many parts of Bangalore.
        Have you actually been to Mangalore yourself? Am I right in saying that unlike me, you are speaking from second-hand knowledge and have never been to Mangalore in your life?

        /** 3. Any minority which wants to observe a different set of norms and rules is not free to do so, because it is the majority’s views that prevail;
        **/
        /*As long as it does not spoil the environment, the minority always have their own right.. There is a saying.. your freedom exists only up to the other man’s tip of nose..*/

        Then if I open a pub outside the private space of any other citizen, within the laws of the land, with the consent of the municipality, the Excise Department and the police, why should anyone object?

        /** 4. The majority that determines these rules happens to be the religious and cultural majority in the country, and within that, the socially-conservative sub-set;
        **/
        /*There is no religious hindu majority here.. neither cultural majority.. and there is no centralised authority in hinduism to set rules.. hindus are NOT bound by any holy book rules..*/

        Then which majority is it that you are quoting against pubs? What group do you belong to that gives you the authority to decide for others?

        /** 5. In line with their beliefs, pubs, discos and dance clubs – any social association that is associated with culture from elsewhere, in other words – is equivalent to a brothel (this is implied, since you have clubbed them together in several places);
        **/
        /*Its not just belief.. its a contradiction of social values.. as i said earlier, people dont want within their region.. they dont care, if its in delhi or any other metros..
        In my personal opinion, pubs and discos are equivalent of brothels.. that’s a different case to argue..*/

        Whose social values are being contradicted? Can you define them? Is it an anonymous mass?

        Is it that all regions outside Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai and Kolkata are not places where people want pubs? How do you know? Have you any source of knowing this?

        Have you any proof that (in the North) Ludhiana, Amritsar, Chandigarh, Patiala, Gurgaon, Faridabad, Agra, Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad, (in the East) Patna, Ranchi, Dhanbad, Jamshedpur, Siliguri, Darjeeling, Burdwan, Guwahati, Tezpur, Jorhat, Shillong, Itanagar, Kohima, Manipur, Agartala, Aizawl, Bhubaneswar, Cuttack, Puri (in the West) Jaipur, Jodhpur, Udaipur, Alwar, Kotah, Pune, Satara (in the Centre) Bhopal, Sagar, Gwalior, Indore (in the South) Hyderabad, Visakhapatnam, Vijaywada, Trichy, Pondicherry, Madurai, Tuticorin, Coimbatore, Kodaikanal, Trivandrum, Kochi, Cannanore, Mysore, Mercara, Ooty, Coonoor, Belgaum all do not want clubs, pubs or discos?

        Do you know which of these places listed have a common drinking culture, where men and women habitually have a drink together in licensed drinking houses, as part of their popular culture?

        Is it going to be your personal opinion that determines the laws of the land? What happened to the majority?

        /** 6. All women who go to pubs, discos and clubs are vulnerable to sexual seduction,
        and all men who go to these know that women who come to these do so to be seduced;
        **/
        /*I cannot comment about all women in pubs. & discothes. but all girls new to pubs and discothes are highly vulnerable to sexual seduction, because they are lured there only for that? Otherwise, for what people are going there? TO pray?*/

        You keep talking of girls being lured there. Have you any experience of this, or any proof? Do girls go there who are not lured?

        And does it ever occur to you that people go there to be in the company of their friends, perhaps all friends of the same sex, and relax over a drink and something to eat, and good music? Why is it that to you, the only reason to go to a pub must be sexual in some manner?

        It may be that no one ever invited you, and that no girl or young woman has spoken to you. Is that what the trouble is, and is that why you are so angry? Out of envy and hatred of something you can’t be part of?

        Could I ask you, have you ever drunk alcohol?

        /** 7. Pubs, discos and clubs must be shut down whether or not they comply with the law, because they don’t comply with the religious majority and the socially conservative sub-set within that; the law of the land no longer matters, the views of the chosen outweighs any legal issue;
        **/

        /*the law of the land is decided by majority.. again thats a different thing.. Law is an ass in many circumstances.. so i want to discuss based on human conscience..
        As i said earlier, there is no religious majority here in india.. its official myth and a misnomer.. again, its a different case to debate..

        The normal people are NOT arguing for nationwide uniform law against pubs .. what they want is that they dont want these within their region.. you can keep it in delhi or any where else where you dont find any opposition..*/

        First the majority, now it is human conscience. Now if nine people have consciences that say pubs should be allowed, and one has a conscience which is different, who should prevail?

        How do you know that pubs are opposed in Mangalore? Where are those people coming from who were in that attacked pub, other than Mangalore?

        /** 8. Women who go to these must be beaten up for their own good, to prevent them from being seduced;
        **/
        /*I never said that.. Even muthalik himself apologised for beating women.. but government should NOT have allowed the pubs in that place, amidst people’s opposition..*/

        Why did Muthalik’s goons then threaten people in Bangalore, in exactly the same way, accosting young women in their 20s and 30s, not girls, as they came out and abusing and insulting them? Are you aware that the law describes verbal assault as ‘assault’, and physical assault is classified as ‘battery’? Are you aware that the pub in question was not opposed by anyone, because it was not in a residential area to begin with? Are you aware that Muthalik’s men were moving from apartment to apartment, crowding into people’s flats, and asking them whether they supported their activities or not? Are you aware of this campaign of intimidation in Bangalore (not in Mangalore) which finally led to a court binding order on Muthalik? Are you even aware of all this?

        /** 9. They do not have the choice of being seduced, or of seducing men, as they are not equal to men, OR as they do not realise the consequences of what they are doing;
        **/
        /*Seduction is NOT a choice.. i said it many times.. Seduction is NOt an individual right.. humans are always susceptible to temptations or luring, and they are lost to their senses.. It may not be a problem for those people like you, who do not believe in chastity.. but its a problem for majority of normal indians, who believe in chastity and who wants their children to be good and properly settle in a peaceful family life..
        Its easy to live without any values.. but a culture needs a common value followed , where one generation trains the next generation with these values..*/

        It is you who defined it as seduction, as you obviously believe that men and women are not equal. Could I ask you a series of questions on that issue, to prove that you are biased against women?

        It is not a question of chastity, it is a question of values. Why do you assume that your individual values must be the norm for everybody else? Here you speak of a majority, earlier you said that a majority might not be available, so human conscience should be the criterion, which is your point of view? Would you be surprised if a majority of parents asked were to say that you or any third person should not set rules for their children, over and above what they themselves think fit to set?

        /** 10. There may be parents who wish to give their children independence, but such parents don’t count; their children don’t count anyway, being children of somebody, and therefore perpetually immature and unfit to take decisions;
        **/
        /*There is no unlimited independance.. few parents may allow their children to go astray as they wish.. but majority of parents believe their children to be brought up in an environment with values they have themselves followed..
        No parent opposes when children take decision responsibly.*/

        First please define child. Is a person of 21 a child or an adult? Is such a person entitled to take decisions for herself or not? Is such a person to be considered a dependent on her parents, even if she is working and her income is the main income for the family?

        And please let us know, how old are you?

        Second, please explain who informed you that the people of over 21 (a criterion for entry into pubs and some discos) had not taken responsible decisions? How do you know that?

        /** 11. There may be parents or mature people who choose their own freedom over their own minds and bodies, but they should not be allowed such freedom, as it clashes with the views of the religious majority, and the subset within, the socially conservative segment;
        **/
        /*See.. dont think that those who are going to pub have freedom.. and also dont think, that all youths of india are craving for pubs and it is parents who dont allow
        Freedom has value in being responsible.. and NOT in becoming slave to one’s own desires and temptations..
        There is no unlimited freedom.. Freedom do have a cost and boundary.. this boundary varies from community to communty and region to region../*

        It is not a question of freedom being equated to going to a pub. Freedom is the choice to either go to a pub or stay away. How can you take freedom away from people by deciding for them that they should not go? Even if the law permits, even if the majority agrees, even if they are independent and earning, why should your choice be their choice?

        How can your community’s definition of boundaries restrict people from other communities? How can your region’s definition of boundaries restrict people from other regions? How can you, for instance, determine what Mangaloreans should or should not do? You are not Mangalorean. You are not Bunt or Tulu-speaking. You are not Christian.

        Or are you?

        /** 12. Senthil is the person who knows what this subset of the majority really wants, and is entitled and authorised to articulate this want.
        **/
        /*Yes.. because i come from that subset of so called majority.. i live among those people, interact with them and understand what values they have and what they want.. and i find that the micro minority of those adopt western values occupy key positions in media is deciding everything for whole india..*/

        Ah, the mysterious majority again. And the subset, which you denied existed only a few lines ago. So your religious group and your conservative subset within that group should be obeyed by everybody else because they are the majority? What about the Christians, including Mangalore Christians, who find nothing wrong with drinking and dancing, although they are as conservative as any other community in all other matters? How do you explain their position? Or do you think that they too are the micro minority of those who adopt western values?

        /** Have you ever had a near and dear one exposed to harrassment and threat by the factions that you seem to be so fond of?
        **/
        /*i bet, You dont what harassment really is..*/

        You lose.

        I do, exactly and precisely.

        Why don’t you answer my question?

        /** If you found a pub opening next door, would you oppose it? **/
        /*Definitely.. i would do everything possible to NOT allow it..*/

        Even if a majority around you were to be for it? Is it majority now, or conscience?

        In separate posts, I shall ask you why you did not answer certain questions I asked you, and what the significance of those omissions was. I shall also answer your scandalous remarks of your other post. Meanwhile, please try to give proper and honest answers, without dodging and turning and twisting.

        Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        Senthil, I'd just like to point one thing out. There is no entity called "culture" which is the same for any subset of people. Each person is alone and has their own individual culture. So in a family of four, there is no single shared culture, but four different ones since no two human beings agree on everything.

        There is no majority culture. In fact, society itself doesn't exist. We're born alone into the world and when we die, no one comes with us. No father, mother, friend, or spouse. So each person is an individual and alone whether they're part of a small minority or in a huge group.

        For this reason, there is no such thing as "majority" or "minority."

        Reply

  8. @bhagwad

    The man is in such a dark blanket of prejudice that I doubt very much that he himself understands what he is saying. Now that he has a mirror held up to him, watch what happens.

    If anyone expects a startled recoil, or contrition, nothing of the sort is going to happen. But just watch.

    Reply

    • In reply to Vajra

      Well, we shouldn’t discuss him personally when he’s not here. After all, we want to talk about issues and not people…

      Reply

    • In reply to Vajra

      Mr. Vajra… by your description of me as dark blanket of prejudice, you are exhibiting your european racism (either knowingly or unknowingly).. i have been seeing this trend among many english educated urbanites, who would look down upon with as much contempt as possible on those rural folks, just because they dont know english and they dont share their western values..

      I understand what i am talking about.. and i understand what you are talking about .. the problem is that you dont understand nothing beyong your selfish needs..

      So before placing mirror before me, first remove the mask of ignorance from you, to see the whole world.. broaden your thoughts, and be sensible..

      Reply

      • In reply to senthil

        Senthil, I don't think Vajra made any reference to rural folk and whether or not they know english. It's possible I missed something in his post which you picked up on and which gave you that impression. For the sake of discussion, could you let me know which sentence led you to the conclusion that he's looking down on rural folk?

        Reply

  9. @bhagwad

    Certainly; I applaud your delicacy, without necessarily subscribing to it. What I am saying is in the open, and he has every liberty to call me to account. As I have liberty to call him to account, for some of the tendentious things he has said which might, and do, outrage my feelings and sentiments, and my constrict my sense of freedom.

    Reply

  10. /** If I didn’t, why would I be asking you? That is a tactic known as answering a difficult question by asking a question back.
    For your information, in response to your attempt to dodge an answer, I studied Political Science in college; I very well know what a democracy is, in technical terms, and in terms of its variations, and can teach it too.
    So what about answering the question, instead of asking a question back?
    **/

    Fine.. and you know in a western style democracy, any decision is taken by majority votes.. i mean, in western type of democracy.. but in indian kind of democracy, its a different kind.. i believe, you might NOT have heard about indigenous democracy.. we can a separate discussion on this..

    /** But that is what you have argued, throughout all your points. If people have a culture which allows them to go to pubs, why are you forcing them to stay at home?
    **/
    Actually, its you who are forcing western culture on indian people.. my stance is that, regional culture should not be disturbed. no one is forcing you or any one to stay at home.. the issue is whether pub is wanted or not..

    <>

    ME: Its the social values of the india, who had inherited from previous generation. The social values of the middle and lower class people, who believe in family system, who have rich social relations, and who all share common set of values, and who all see pubs, discothes as indescent and even barbaric ones..

    The set of social values varies from place to place depending on the history of the region and the social composition..

    You are a student of political science.. hope you have fair understanding of history.. if you want, we can have debate about this historic aspect in separate post..

    <>

    ME: which people want pubs? How do you know all people want pubs? Chennai is still a conservative society, with small set of pub-goers, who just silently go there without causing disturbance to others.. there are often excesses, but police take prompt action to rein those overreaching people..

    <>

    I am from Tamilnadu.. and i can say, majority people of Trichy, Madurai, Tuticorin, Coimbatore, kodaikanal dont want pubs and consider pubs as mark of indescent and shameful one..

    If you want proof for other regions, probably you can take a survey in all those cities..

    <>
    In most of the places listed by you, women dont drink.. and in all the cities in tamilnadu, women dont drink, except for few families who were brought up in western culture from their childhood..

    But many men go to wineshop for drinking..

    <>

    The laws are for the people.. and NOT people for the law.. I strongly oppose any centralisation of laws, except for those which deals with national security, foreign relations and other critical domains.. India is NOT a homogenous country.. india is composed of 56 historic desams.. india is diverse in language and culture.. diverse in topography.. Why should you enact a law and force everyone to adhere to it..
    Leave it to the local people, to decide what they want.. just like different regions in US have their own laws..

    My opinion is limited to the area i live and to the society and community i belong to.. i dont want to interfere with you, and you can live in the area where the culture you want prevails… but by using laws, dont make whole india as colony for yourself..

    <>

    I already told.. i am not concerned with those girls who were grown up in western life style.. I am concerned only about the girls, whom the ordinary people send for studies to college, but carried away by those loafers and womenisers, who use pubs as a convenient place for seduction..

    I dont have any direct expeirence of seduction.. but i had seen many instances, where guys lure girls and had ditched them along with pregnancy..

    <>

    what a logic sirji.. in our area, there is no culture of inviting to pub.. and no girl in our area ever goes to pub..
    The problem is that you are unable to see a world beyond your pubs and discothes.. come out of your shell sir..

    <>

    NO.. but i had gone with my friends to bar.. they wont force me, and even if i ask them, they wont allow me… they themselves acknowledge, they could not leave this drinking and smoking habit..

    <>

    The women you are referring are either belong to pick chaddi campaign or those who support them..

    are you aware, women from middle and lower class, had supported him, but could not express it publicly?
    Ofcourse, muthalik has apologised for harming those women.. but these ordinary women want stricter punishment for these girls..

    verbal assault.. physical assault.. but what about media terrorism? and what about your assault of imposing western culture among native people? I can counter you for each and every word.. it wont lead us any where..

    /** It is you who defined it as seduction, as you obviously believe that men and women are not equal. Could I ask you a series of questions on that issue, to prove that you are biased against women?
    **/

    Men and women are NOT equal.. biologically, psychologically, emotionally and in many other aspects men and women are NOT equal.. i am a practical man and i dont live in utopian world of idealism..

    <>

    Chastity is the highest value and virtue that ordinary people (of all religions) believe in today.. its people like you and those media dons, who are unleashing the propoganda against this.. like those idiots like kushboo, who thinks that every women would be like her..

    <>

    But you see.. i am part of that majority, and majority of people, have the same opinion like me.. majority of family expects their sons and daughters to be good citizen, not to indulge in drinking or smoking habits, and NOT to go astray.. majority of people work hard to send their children to college for studying and NOT for going pubs or indulge in illicit activities..

    It is a micro minority of people like you who occupy key positions, and impose the western values on normal indian society.. the common people do not have any medium to express their opinions.. and i am one among them who is able to do that in internet, clashing with people like you..

    <

    Maturity, responsibility comes with one’s action and NOT with age.. just because one has attained 21, does not mean, what he did is always right.. as i said earlier, you might not believe in existence of society.. but ordinary people like me, who come from rural background have a rich society to interact with, to have relations, and to have common set of values, customs and traditions, to have community temple, to have specific pattern of matrimony etc etc..

    These traditions and cultures are passed on from generation to generation.. my parents inherited it..

    I am currently in my late twenties.. and as a youth, we were grown up in our traditional society.. and we have to go to cities for a living.. i am in a tech company, and have stayed in bangalore and chennai, and have seen both ends of indian society..

    We (yes.. not just me.. but a lot of youths) are definitely concerned, that the society we came from, is not available to our children..

    <>

    As said, entry in to pubs and discos are ugly, dirty, shameful and indescent activity for the native indian society.. whether its 21 yrs old or 60yrs old, its considered irresponsible if one goes to pub or disco..

    Mind it.. i am talking only about the society i live in.. the society in my region alone..

    /** It is not a question of freedom being equated to going to a pub. Freedom is the choice to either go to a pub or stay away. How can you take freedom away from people by deciding for them that they should not go? Even if the law permits, even if the majority agrees, even if they are independent and earning, why should your choice be their choice?
    **/

    see.. individual responsibility is more important than individual freedom.. there is no unlimited freedom.. you cant say, its my freedom to go naked in the road… the police will nab you and boot you in the jail.. you cant say its my freedom to “f***” in public.. there is always an etiquette, to be followed in different places.. in company, in a mall.. Even in the pubs and discothes, there is always restriction, on how one should come and who all are allowed..

    Just like you have a set of western ideals which you confine yourself, we have our own indian ideals, which is contradictory to yours.. the problem starts only when you people, start imposing your culture on us in the name of freedom…

    So, please dont talk about freedom in isolated way..

    //**
    How can your community’s definition of boundaries restrict people from other communities? How can your region’s definition of boundaries restrict people from other regions? How can you, for instance, determine what Mangaloreans should or should not do? You are not Mangalorean. You are not Bunt or Tulu-speaking. You are not Christian.

    Or are you?
    **//

    Ok.. let me not talk about mangaloreans.. i have the right to preserve the culture of my own region.. i have the right to oppose, if you attempt to start pubs here in my region.. do you agree or not?
    Btw, do you mean, tulu speaking or Bunt people go to pubs? Do you say, all christians go to pub?

    /** Ah, the mysterious majority again. And the subset, which you denied existed only a few lines ago. So your religious group and your conservative subset within that group should be obeyed by everybody else because they are the majority? What about the Christians, including Mangalore Christians, who find nothing wrong with drinking and dancing, although they are as conservative as any other community in all other matters? How do you explain their position? Or do you think that they too are the micro minority of those who adopt western values?
    **/

    i denied only religious majority which you have said.. here majority means the majority of common people.. dont confuse..

    why should you brand my values as conservative first? and how can you say that all christians go to pubs or discothes?

    /** Even if a majority around you were to be for it? Is it majority now, or conscience?
    **/

    Conscience of the majority.. what i said, was my generic view that law is an ass, without human conscience applied..

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    This is what is called aggression.. a colonial invasion..

    if you want to know why, we can have separate broad based discussion on the concept of law, and the purpose of it..

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